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  • FIRST POST
    • shamilt1
    • By shamilt1 11th Oct 17, 4:28 PM
    • 61Posts
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    shamilt1
    Work Injury claim
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 17, 4:28 PM
    Work Injury claim 11th Oct 17 at 4:28 PM
    Hi. I had an accident at work last Wednesday on the table saw at work. I lost the top half of my thumb and sawed down through the second bone into the knuckle that joins the palm. Iíve had plastic surgery and theyíve done good job- but even if it recovers well Iíll be left with a short thumb that wonít move. Iím wondering whether I should claim? Nothing has been mentioned about what Iíll be paid whilst off ( but Iím guessing full pay). My boss originally said she was going to fill out an accident investigation form, then she phoned and said she is worried about the consequences- the saw should have a guard on but hasnít for at least the last 10 years....there are jobs that we cannot do with the guard on. As far as Iím aware the report she should be making has 10 days to be in. I love where I work, have a good relationship with the boss, but I donít want to start something that Iím going to regret. Any advice?
Page 2
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 12th Oct 17, 9:54 AM
    • 486 Posts
    • 360 Thanks
    Comms69
    Just a heads-up, NEVER pay any attention to lists like these. No two cases are the same and putting figures in people's minds is unfair and in my opinion, unethical.

    PI compensation is based on how long you were/are/will be injured for, loss of enjoyment, loss of earnings, ongoing medical support etc and don't forget your solicitor will take his/her cut (usually 25%) and things like medical expert fees and costs etc will be deducted from what you are awarded too.
    Originally posted by BobbyShazam
    Sure I was just posting it as an outline. Ofcourse there are various factors and like you say the solicitor always takes a cut
    • shamilt1
    • By shamilt1 12th Oct 17, 10:57 AM
    • 61 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    shamilt1
    I’ve just seen my manager. I asked if an accident investigation form has been sent off and he’s told me that it has. Does this mean that all the consequences for the firm that I was worried about are now going to take place anyway? If that is the case would making a claim have any extra repercussions for the firm apart from putting their premiums up?
    • BobbyShazam
    • By BobbyShazam 12th Oct 17, 10:59 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    BobbyShazam
    As long as they've followed correct procedure it won't make much difference to the way a claim goes.
    Employer Liability and Clinical Negligence Paralegal

    *All advice and opinions offered are general, non-commital and not a substitute for advice from a qualified practising Solicitor*
    *All views are my own*
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 12th Oct 17, 11:18 AM
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    Savvy_Sue
    Your boss HAS to report this, regardless of the consequences.

    My paternal grandfather survived the Somme only to be killed in the 1920s when he was pulled into an unguarded machine. I would have hoped that we have moved on since then.
    Originally posted by Silvertabby
    This. The OP has lost part of his thumb. Next time it could be worse, far worse. We HAVE moved on since then.

    Iíve just seen my manager. I asked if an accident investigation form has been sent off and heís told me that it has.
    Originally posted by shamilt1
    Is there some way of checking this? (Not asking the OP, just a general question.)
    Still knitting!
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    • shamilt1
    • By shamilt1 12th Oct 17, 11:44 AM
    • 61 Posts
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    shamilt1
    I think the details to check are here?
    https://www.ucu.org.uk/media/3007/Checking-your-employer-has-made-a-RIDDOR-report---UCU-factsheet/pdf/hsfacts_riddorreports.pdf
    • z1a
    • By z1a 12th Oct 17, 6:22 PM
    • 688 Posts
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    z1a
    So it's OK for a piece of machinery to be left in an unsafe condition, because there are jobs which can't be done with it in a safe condition? I'm just waiting for one of the H&S experts to come and comment on this, words are failing me ...
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    This is the case in a lot of engineering jobs, guards can hinder you so much it makes the job virtually impossible, but we know the risks and act accordingly.
    • dickydonkin
    • By dickydonkin 12th Oct 17, 6:40 PM
    • 2,871 Posts
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    dickydonkin
    The information sheet the link refers to is out of date as RIDDOR legislation was amended in (iirc) 2012, and one of the main elements that changed, was the required reporting of an 'over 3 day injury' to 'over 7 seven days' - this was partly to align with the requirement for individuals to obtain a ĎFit-Noteí from their Doctor,

    As your injury was a 'specified injury' under the regulations, the time you are incapacitated to carry out your 'normal duties' at work is irrelevant and must be reported within 10 days.

    An over 7 day injury has a 15 day timescale to be reported.

    It is good practice to keep all records of injuries for three years (the maximum time a PI claim can be submitted), and an accident book usually satisfies this requirement.

    It is some time since I submitted a Riddor report (Form F2508), but as well as the employer receiving confirmation of receiving the report from the contact centre, the injured person also would receive a copy through the post. I suspect this is still the case.

    CHECK THE DETAILS OF THE ACCIDENT YOUR EMPLOYER HAS SUBMITTED.

    I have seen reports where the employer has provided inaccurate information with respect to injuries and to the causes of them. As your employer seems concerned at the consequences of reporting the accident (and so they should be if your reference to the guard is correct), they may be economical in disclosing all the facts.

    As the immediate cause of your injury seems to be the lack of guards on the saw - this is pretty serious stuff and by default, an amputation is a specified injury under RIDDOR due to its seriousness.

    From past experience, it is very likely that the HSE will investigate this and as far as I am concerned, your employer deserves everything they get - although nowadays, fines are aligned with the size and turnover of a company if found guilty of H&S breaches, however, with fees for intervention (FFI) also charged by the HSE, there will be potentially serious financial consequences for your company if this is indeed legally escalated.

    I hope your injury improves and has no long term consequences for you, but you really need to look after number one here and I would suggest you seek legal advice and ensure your injury and consequential losses are compensated.

    Good Luck.
    • shamilt1
    • By shamilt1 12th Oct 17, 6:59 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    shamilt1
    The information sheet the link refers to is out of date as RIDDOR legislation was amended in (iirc) 2012, and one of the main elements that changed, was the required reporting of an 'over 3 day injury' to 'over 7 seven days' - this was partly to align with the requirement for individuals to obtain a ĎFit-Noteí from their Doctor,

    As your injury was a 'specified injury' under the regulations, the time you are incapacitated to carry out your 'normal duties' at work is irrelevant and must be reported within 10 days.

    An over 7 day injury has a 15 day timescale to be reported.

    It is good practice to keep all records of injuries for three years (the maximum time a PI claim can be submitted), and an accident book usually satisfies this requirement.

    It is some time since I submitted a Riddor report (Form F2508), but as well as the employer receiving confirmation of receiving the report from the contact centre, the injured person also would receive a copy through the post. I suspect this is still the case.

    CHECK THE DETAILS OF THE ACCIDENT YOUR EMPLOYER HAS SUBMITTED.

    I have seen reports where the employer has provided inaccurate information with respect to injuries and to the causes of them. As your employer seems concerned at the consequences of reporting the accident (and so they should be if your reference to the guard is correct), they may be economical in disclosing all the facts.

    As the immediate cause of your injury seems to be the lack of guards on the saw - this is pretty serious stuff and by default, an amputation is a specified injury under RIDDOR due to its seriousness.

    From past experience, it is very likely that the HSE will investigate this and as far as I am concerned, your employer deserves everything they get - although nowadays, fines are aligned with the size and turnover of a company if found guilty of H&S breaches, however, with fees for intervention (FFI) also charged by the HSE, there will be potentially serious financial consequences for your company if this is indeed legally escalated.

    I hope your injury improves and has no long term consequences for you, but you really need to look after number one here and I would suggest you seek legal advice and ensure your injury and consequential losses are compensated.

    Good Luck.
    Originally posted by dickydonkin
    Thank you for your reply. Although the sheet in the link is out of date, do you know if the telephone number provided is still the correct one for checking if a report has been made?
    I thought Iíd have this job for life and it looks like my slip on the saw might lose everybody their jobs...including mine. I wouldnít claim if the outcome is the firm going out of business, but am I correct in saying that claiming now wouldnít make a difference....the ball is already rolling?
    • dickydonkin
    • By dickydonkin 12th Oct 17, 7:49 PM
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    dickydonkin
    Thank you for your reply. Although the sheet in the link is out of date, do you know if the telephone number provided is still the correct one for checking if a report has been made?

    I thought I’d have this job for life and it looks like my slip on the saw might lose everybody their jobs...including mine. I wouldn’t claim if the outcome is the firm going out of business, but am I correct in saying that claiming now wouldn’t make a difference....the ball is already rolling?
    Originally posted by shamilt1
    The phone number is 0345 300 9923.

    Any claim for personal injury would (should) be covered under the employers liability insurance so in the short term, there would be no immediate financial consequences as the insurance company would be paying out - renewal premiums on the other hand........!

    Should the incident escalate to the enforcing body (I am assuming it would be the HSE in your case), then that is where uninsurable costs may hit the company with respect to FFI which I alluded to earlier (which is basically a cost recovery scheme).

    £129.00 per hour quickly adds up, potential court fines and the costs of defending a trial can be catastrophic to the bank account and viability of a business...but they should have thought of the these consequences when they were quite content to operate dangerous machinery.

    You have no need to feel guilty - ask yourself how you would feel if someone else in the future lost a hand, fingers or had a serious or life changing injury on the very same piece of equipment you lost your thumb.

    I would certainly check to see if your employer has indeed submitted a RIDDOR report - failing to have done so will only make it worse for your employer if this incident is progressed by the HSE.
    • shamilt1
    • By shamilt1 12th Oct 17, 8:10 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    shamilt1
    Should the incident escalate to the enforcing body (I am assuming it would be the HSE in your case), then that is where uninsurable costs may hit the company with respect to FFI which I alluded to earlier (which is basically a cost recovery scheme).
    £129.00 per hour quickly adds up, potential court fines and the costs of defending a trial can be catastrophic to the bank account and viability of a business
    Originally posted by dickydonkin
    Thanks again.

    Will sh*t hit the the fan anyway regardless of a claim, if the report to RIDDOR has been submitted? (I will check if it has tomorrow)
    • patman99
    • By patman99 12th Oct 17, 10:32 PM
    • 8,059 Posts
    • 9,476 Thanks
    patman99
    It is not your worry if the shtf. I lost the top half of my thumb in an industrial accident with a saw back in 1990. I got £11k in compo.

    The saw was properly guarded, but the wrong h&s advice had been given to the operator.

    As a former factory safety officer, my advice is to start a claim without haste. You have nothing to loose. It is obvious from your opening post that the company has allowed a machine to be used with the Baird removed in order to allow work to be undertaken that otherwise would not be possible.

    The correct thing to have done was to either have a machine designed that would allow the work to be undertaken safely, or, to outsource the work to a firm capable of safely undertaking the work.

    By the way, once you have your compo, you can apply for Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit (not sure if it is still called this).

    It could be worth £32 per week for life.
    Never Knowingly Understood.

    Member #1 of £1,000 challenge - £494.94/ £1000 (that's 49.49%)

    3-6 month EF £240.61/£3600 (that's 4 days worth)

    Do you/your spouse earn less than £197 p/w ?. Fill-in Form R85 and get your Bank interest Tax free.
    • shamilt1
    • By shamilt1 12th Oct 17, 10:42 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    shamilt1
    It is not your worry if the shtf.
    Originally posted by patman99
    The main reason Iím worried is that if they get hit with heavy fines and other costs, they wonít be able to continue and Iíll be out of a job.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 13th Oct 17, 1:45 AM
    • 37,738 Posts
    • 34,072 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    The main reason Iím worried is that if they get hit with heavy fines and other costs, they wonít be able to continue and Iíll be out of a job.
    Originally posted by shamilt1
    Look, it's a possibility. But a) this may happen anyway because of the RIDDOR (legal requirement); b) next time it might be more than a thumb.

    Frankly, in your position I'd be jobhunting anyway.
    Still knitting!
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    • dickydonkin
    • By dickydonkin 13th Oct 17, 2:16 PM
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    dickydonkin
    Look, it's a possibility. But a) this may happen anyway because of the RIDDOR (legal requirement); b) next time it might be more than a thumb.

    Frankly, in your position I'd be jobhunting anyway.
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    I would concur with that.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 13th Oct 17, 2:28 PM
    • 9,756 Posts
    • 7,782 Thanks
    lincroft1710
    The main reason I’m worried is that if they get hit with heavy fines and other costs, they won’t be able to continue and I’ll be out of a job.
    Originally posted by shamilt1
    They deserve to be hit with heavy fines! You have had a serious (but very fortunately not life threatening) injury because of their negligence and downright disobedience of the law.

    The sooner employers like this are either shut down or made to toe the line, the better! This is one of the few occasions when pursuing something will make sure it doesn't happen to someone else. Also I bet there are other breaches of H&S.
    • shamilt1
    • By shamilt1 13th Oct 17, 4:00 PM
    • 61 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    shamilt1
    Thanks to everyone who has replied. I spoke to the owner of the business today and she informed me that she has reported the accident to RIDDOR.
    I informed her that I will be making a claim for my injuries.
    • patman99
    • By patman99 13th Oct 17, 9:49 PM
    • 8,059 Posts
    • 9,476 Thanks
    patman99
    If you have worked there over 2 years, she cannot just get shot of you no matter how much you get awarded in compensation.

    Where I currently work, we have no h&s policy and never have had. However, all the machinery is fully guarded and the only saw related accident was someone severing a tendon in their finger when they caught it on a burr on a freshly cut piece of box section.

    This was purely an accident and was unavoidable.

    Good luck with your claim and I hope your boss will now look at what needs to be done to eliminate the risk that the saw poses.
    Never Knowingly Understood.

    Member #1 of £1,000 challenge - £494.94/ £1000 (that's 49.49%)

    3-6 month EF £240.61/£3600 (that's 4 days worth)

    Do you/your spouse earn less than £197 p/w ?. Fill-in Form R85 and get your Bank interest Tax free.
    • BobbyShazam
    • By BobbyShazam 13th Oct 17, 9:54 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    BobbyShazam
    Thanks to everyone who has replied. I spoke to the owner of the business today and she informed me that she has reported the accident to RIDDOR.
    I informed her that I will be making a claim for my injuries.
    Originally posted by shamilt1
    Good luck, I hope it all goes well for you
    Employer Liability and Clinical Negligence Paralegal

    *All advice and opinions offered are general, non-commital and not a substitute for advice from a qualified practising Solicitor*
    *All views are my own*
    • elsien
    • By elsien 13th Oct 17, 9:56 PM
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    • 38,022 Thanks
    elsien
    I do have to ask though, while agreeing that the employer deserves to have the book thrown at them, does the worker not have a responsibility for their own H&S as well if they use equipment that they know to be unsafe?
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • BobbyShazam
    • By BobbyShazam 13th Oct 17, 10:00 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    BobbyShazam
    I do have to ask though, while agreeing that the employer deserves to have the book thrown at them, does the worker not have a responsibility for their own H&S as well if they use equipment that they know to be unsafe?
    Originally posted by elsien
    IIRC and broadly speaking, the employee has a responsibility to his/her colleagues, i.e. failing to secure a ladder whilst someone is up it, leading to them falling down and getting injured. The one failing to hold the ladder can't blame the employer if he/she wasn't paying attention etc
    Employer Liability and Clinical Negligence Paralegal

    *All advice and opinions offered are general, non-commital and not a substitute for advice from a qualified practising Solicitor*
    *All views are my own*
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