PARKING TICKET: I've been a fool. Any advice?

Stepfly · 20 September 2016 at 4:53PM

Many thanks for the detailed advice, Coupon-mad. Extremely helpful.

Yes - but check the PCN just in case it's one which says you must appeal within 21 days (rather than 28) because I think maybe UKCPS only allow 21 days and only the driver to appeal at this point. So, your friend could just wait for the NTK to arrive in the post and THEN send the template appeal, always writing as the keeper (we assume he is not a company car driver and his name & address is in the V5).

No, it's a private car (added wrinkle- it's since been scrapped, though that isn't really germane here)

I've checked, and you're correct, they only allow 21 days to appeal. However, I don't see any indication that the person appealing has to be the driver. It just says:

"You must provide your full name and address, the vehicle reg number and the Parking Reference at the top of this notice and your full reasons for contesting liability otherwise your appeal will not be processed."

However, it later says:

"In the event that payment is not made in full within 28 days of issue of this PCN, the vehicle's keeper details may be requested from the DVLA and a notice may be sent to the registered keeper."

With this in mind is there any value in writing *before* the NTK arrives if it's only 21 days for the appeal, or is it best to just fire off the template letter once the NTK shows up, which - if I'm reading that correctly - would have to be AFTER 28 days (because they can't get the keeper's details from the DVLA until the 28 days has passed) Does it make ANY difference?

Yep - my strong advice is, DO NOT TRY IAS at all because you'll lose and then the PPC might use what they'll paint as an 'independent ADR decision' in court. A Judge would not know it's a kangaroo court and might be swayed a little by the IAS win for the parking firm. DO NOT hand the PPC that advantage so tell your friend that when he gets his rejection letter he STOPS and files letters safely instead (keep them, just in case).

Stick, don't twist, at IAS stage.

Received loud and clear!

Ignore the begging letters after that. Don't ignore court papers or a solicitor's letter.

I will let him know... But I know he's very skittish about even the possibility of court action (I am too TBH). Are the chances of winning in that eventuality pretty high, or no way of knowing/ lap of the gods?

Oh, and get some photos of how bad the signs are, right NOW. Entrance lacking in signs? Any obscured signs? Any angles you can take a photo from which show the £100 to be illegible from a car/from a space/unlit at night if the car was parked in the dark? Collect evidence NOW. File it away.

I've taken some snaps, but they aren't terribly helpful tbh. The signs are quite prominent (though, the £100 penalty is pretty small and couldn't be seen from a driver's seated position). Also, the lights in the garage automatically turn off after a period and then the signage is totally obscured in the dark (and I have a shot of that!)

Certainly - ALWAYS COMPLAIN. It can work; often landowners have an allowance of certain number of 'charges' they can cancel. Your friend should hurry with that - sometimes there's a short (e.g. seven/10 day) window for free cancellation by the landowner if they support a resident!

I've checked, but can only find information for the Management Company NOT the landowners. Would that be myself or my friend to write that letter (esp, since *I'm* the resident) and are there important DOs and DON'Ts for a letter of complaint i.e. like not identifying the name of the driver?

Thanks again, though. Much appreciated. This is a real time-consuming, aggravating nonsense so it's good to have advice.

Half_way · 20 September 2016 at 6:00PM

I've taken some snaps, but they aren't terribly helpful tbh

if the writing on them is readable then that will be good enough, upload them and post a partial link ie instead of http://www. try hxxp://www. and end it with dot co dot uk or dot com instead of .co.uk

I've checked, but can only find information for the Management Company

That will do, as it is they who have taken on scumbag parking as their agents.
you need to complain and tell them that thye must cancel this and anjy future parking charge notice as they are acting unreasonably in allowing a PPC to operate and as a result they are :
Sub letting your space to a profit driven entity that operates in an unregulated industry

That You have/are only displaying a permit entirely at your own discretion, and that of whoever else may be driving a vehicle that you have consented to park in your space.

The management company is jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents, in this case UKCPS

You do not appreciate having your time wasted as a result of the management company's lack of due diligence and unreasonable behaviour in allowing a company such as UKCPs to operate a profit making business on the land, and as such you may invoice the management company at upto £19 per hour as a result of the actions of their agents.

The sign age lacks planning permission and crucially advertising consent, Signs erected by parking companies require advertising consent under the Town and country Planning (Control of Advertisements ) (England) Regulations 2007, The management company is also liable for the signs.
Unlike planning permission adversing consent can not be retrospectively granted, failure to comply with the previously mentioned act can, means that a person displaying an advertisement in contravention ofthese Regulations shall be liable, on summary conviction of a criminal offence under section 224(3) of the Act, to a fine of an amount not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale (a) and, in the case of a continuing offence, one tenth of level 4 on the standard scale for each day during which the offence continues after conviction. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/783/pdfs/uksi_20070783_en.pdf

I would also request that the management company removes all offending signage with immediate effect

Stepfly · 21 September 2016 at 4:26PM

Thanks, Half_way. I'll complain to the Management Company using the language you've suggested. I suppose I don't know for *definite* they haven't acquired planning permission or advertising consent... Though, it seems highly unlikely and the letter can't hurt.

I'm a private tenant rather than the owner of the property in the block of flats. Does the argument still hold then that they are "Sub letting" the space in that situation?

When you say "upload the pics" do you mean to another site and link them here with the partial link ie, or on this forum itself? Apologies. I'm not very au fait with the tech end.

Cheers.

The_Deep · 21 September 2016 at 5:40PM

A Judge would not know it's a kangaroo court

He would if you tell him. Besides, an anonymous half-baked adjudication will flouts all the norms of evidence and fair play could be used as a stick to beat the PPC in court. Appealing an IAS decision is the way to go imo.

There are lots of ways that you can argue this, no v.a.t. receipt, no contract, it is a penalty, signs are unreadable/non compliant, no authority to issue charges, but I doubt if planning permission is one of them.

Coupon-mad · 21 September 2016 at 11:03PM

Stepfly wrote: »

When you say "upload the pics" do you mean to another site and link them here with the partial link ie, or on this forum itself?

Host photos in Dropbox or on tinypic, photobucket or similar then get the short URL of the picture and post it here, but without the 'http'. Then we can convert it back to a full link.

yotmon · 22 September 2016 at 1:42AM

What is the 'arrangement' if a visitor calls - do u have to stand outside your apartment block in the rain waiting to hand over the parking permit, or is there a grace period to allow the permit to be collected ?
Does the ticket just say 'parking permit not displayed' or does it give a time period of parking. It should be feasible to allow a visitor the time to call at the address, collect the permit and return to their vehicle without receiving a parking charge.

Stepfly · 22 September 2016 at 2:43PM

ok, have got the images uploaded to tinypic.

Do I just post bare links, rather than tinypic "IMG code for forums and message boards" links using the forum posting link option (which causes the full-sized image to be displayed directly into this thread)

Thanks.

bod1467 · 22 September 2016 at 3:03PM

Please do not try to use IMG code ... just post the links.

Stepfly · 22 September 2016 at 3:19PM

Ok, here are the signs...

http://i67.tinypic.com/2585qnn.jpg

(that is from the parking space as if from a car parked there)

http://i68.tinypic.com/5umf7d.jpg

(that's the external signage)

http://i65.tinypic.com/vgqz5g.jpg

(that's a direct on view)

http://i67.tinypic.com/w7ewo.jpg

(that's how it looks when the automatic lights click off after a few mins!)

Stepfly · 22 September 2016 at 3:32PM

Can anyone confirm whether - since the UKCPS appeal window is 21 days rather than 28 - it is better to send the intial form letter from the Newbies post earlier than the 3 weeks advised there? Thanks.

PARKING TICKET: I've been a fool. Any advice?

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