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1 Big Car Park, 2 landowners, Valid parking ticket but Parking Charge Issued

145791023

Comments

  • I have just re-read the statement - bit confused about the fence you talk about being there when you went back to do the video, that wasn't there on the day you had parked. Where's the fence (and this also indicates there was a while between you parking and then going back, so you need to make this clear when you say when the video was taken).
    If the fence was put up to demarcate the different parts of the car park, you should add a question about that to my suggested FOI request.
    I think what you are saying is probably clearer when it's read in conjunction with the photos and the aerial google earth image, I'm just reading the words and it's not clear from those where that new bit of fence was, or what its purpose was.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • claxtome
    claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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    edited 23 July 2017 at 7:39AM
    Ok thanks again for your thoughts and help LoadsofChildren123.

    Been checking at things - was a 2 month gap between pcn and taking video. Have stated exact day as looked at original video files.

    Not mentioned sign in WS but have included a photo of the rubble. (If you think it still can be included I am willing to listen to your argument).

    To try and answer about sign->
    At the boundary of the two areas there is a back road which means you can get onto either part of the car park before rubble was put there.
    With the rubble there you can only get onto council part now.
    This sign shows the way to the council part from that way in. It is at right angle to the route from council and private part and vice versa.

    I have a little tinker to do tonight and will try and post an update anonymous WS on this forum.

    A FOI sounds like a good idea. Interested to know when the fence was put up and why. It is most definitely a boundary fence. Bet the council put up not ES. Also interested to know who put rubble there as on day of video some was there but was still passable.
  • claxtome
    claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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    I think it's dynamite that they have now put up a sign and some rubble to stop cars driving between the two, effectively now making it two distinct car parks. To me this indicates an acceptance that the way it was before was misleading.

    I think you are right it is strange why suddenly it was done around the turn of the year.
  • claxtome
    claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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    edited 22 July 2017 at 9:15AM
    I think what you are saying is probably clearer when it's read in conjunction with the photos and the aerial google earth image, I'm just reading the words and it's not clear from those where that new bit of fence was, or what its purpose was.

    The google earth image with annotations makes it so easy to see...

    Thanks for advice...
  • claxtome
    claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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    edited 22 July 2017 at 11:53AM
    [FONT=&quot]Here is my current version of my witness statement->
    https://db.tt/YZd061Tw9a

    I did try and cut and paste it but it wouldn't let me upload it :-(
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Unfortunately it doesn't show the evidence document that it refers to.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Any comments are welcome please....[/FONT]

    I hand deliver my bundle on Monday to court. :-)
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,454 Forumite
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    Looks good to me!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • claxtome
    claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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    Just received in the post today the other parties witness statement and evidence. The diagram showing signage covers the whole car park and includes signage in the council area. Gives me some amunition.

    Will scan the WS tonight including the diagram and land agreement anonymised..

    Not sure if this gives me any time to alter my witness statement before Monday.
  • claxtome
    claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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    edited 23 July 2017 at 8:05AM
    I have uploaded my WS, evidence doc, and contents page.
    They are all in this dropbox folder:
    https://db.tt/cE8UQOqCyE
    Note: The evidence doc includes the map that the WS refers to along with all the other referrals.

    The Claimant's equivalent is in this dropbox folder and it looks very like a 'roboclaim':
    https://db.tt/8PFGm4rzP9

    The claimant's map of signage is very vague and doesn't show what they currently manage.
    They are using case VCS v HMRC (2013) and the expected Beavis case.
    and help with defence response for these would be greatly appreciated.

    I now wonder should I start responding to the Claimants WS in mine OR wait until Skeleton stage?

    Any comments welcome thanks :-)
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,454 Forumite
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    edited 23 July 2017 at 1:53PM
    I would say that VCS v HMRC rules in favour of a motorist in most defences now, teaching that while a contract can be 'made' it is not necessarily enforceable (the analogy is that whilst someone *can* contract to sell Buckingham Palace, this cannot be enforced).

    Here's a rebuttal that bargepole wrote a while back, in rebuttal about VCS v HMRC:
    The Claimant relies on the Court of Appeal case of Vehicle Control Services v Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs [2013] EWCA Civ 186, as establishing a precedent that the present Claimant can bring proceedings in its own name. The Defendant asserts that the facts of VCS v HMRC were substantially different from the present case, and that therefore the case can be distinguished from the present case for the following reasons:

    The VCS v HMRC case was primarily concerned with VAT liabilities, and the question of whether VCS’s charges should be considered a charge for a service, and therefore subject to VAT. It was held that they were damages for breach of contract, and therefore not subject to VAT. However, the terms under which motorists were deemed to have entered into a contract with VCS were materially different from the present case. In VCS v HMRC, the landholder appointed VCS to operate a permit scheme, whereby those persons authorised to park received a permit, together with a letter from VCS outlining its conditions of use.

    It was held, at para. 27, that “ ... in my judgment the significance of that is that in effect VCS promised to contract with persons nominated by the landowner. It does not make the contracts “contracts entered into as agent for the landowner”. No landowner's name appears on the permit or the terms and conditions. By clause 4.3 of the contract between VCS and the landowner, the landowner agreed to ensure that all authorised vehicles displayed a VCS permit. The effect of that clause was that the landowner gave up the right to grant direct authorisation to anyone to park in the car park. The right to park could only be conferred by means of a contract between VCS and the motorist. If there was any agency it was an agency for an undisclosed principal. In the case of an agent acting for an undisclosed principal, the agent can sue and be sued on the contract. "

    It is clear from this that VCS were not acting as an agent for the principal, they were contracting in their own right, for an undisclosed principal. In the present case, the Claimant does hold himself to be an agent of the principal, whose identity is disclosed in both the Claimant's signs and the witness statement purportedly signed by the landholder's representative.


    Also, in VCS v HMRC it was held that any fines were for 'damages' or 'trespass' neither of which are able to be recovered by a parking firm not in possession.

    Only a landowner can pursue a driver for damages or under tort (trespass). Not even ParkingEye in the Beavis case tried to argue 'damages' and the Judges there said:
    97. ParkingEye concedes that the £85 is payable upon a breach of contract, and that it is not a pre-estimate of damages. As it was not the owner of the car park, ParkingEye could not recover damages, unless it was in possession, in which case it may be able to recover a small amount of damages for trespass. This is because it lost nothing by the unauthorised use resulting from Mr Beavis overstaying.
    Lord Mance at 190: Mr Beavis… was being given a licence, on conditions, and he would have been a trespasser if he overstayed or failed to comply with its other conditions. By promising ParkingEye not to overstay and to comply with its other conditions, Mr Beavis gave ParkingEye a right, which it would not otherwise have had, to enforce such conditions against him in contract.

    and later:
    ‘’ But it may fairly be said that in the absence of agreement on the charge, Mr Beavis would not have been liable to ParkingEye. He would have been liable to the landowner in tort for trespass, but that liability would have been limited to the occupation value of the parking space.’’

    I had a quick look at their WS (a template, same as every one we see!) and the evidence which appears to be an image of dots, like Sports coaches use showing footballers on a football pitch, only in this case the 'dots' are MEANT to be signs. But they appear to have only shown ONE photo of a distant sign, how do you know the dots are signs (bet there are not that many, in fact, can you get a video to take to court to show the truth?).

    Also the contract says it runs for 12 months then is subject to termination, and it doesn't show the grace period except to mention 20 minutes, if someone had their hazard lights on (but the signs do not mention this as an exemption...). When was the contract signed?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • claxtome
    claxtome Posts: 628 Forumite
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    Thank you very much Coupon-mad. Your post is very useful.

    I couldn't believe how small their WS was and how vague the map is.

    One quick general question if i may->
    Can you wait until the skeleton before challenging a Claimant's WS?

    If so i will use the defence you have suggested + use a blank version of my map and plot where the signs are etc. etc. - got nearly 3 months.
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