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Forgot to display permit for my own space

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  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,346 Forumite
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    This could be fun to see what the IAS make of it!
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • safarmuk
    safarmuk Posts: 648 Forumite
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    So the above is the to and fro between you and the PPC?

    I particularly like the tongue tying "you have a right to park there ... but if you don't have your permit on display - when you exercise your right to park there which we fully acknowledge - essentially this other contract we have kicks in that says you owe us £60 for parking where we once again acknowledge you have a right to park because you did so without showing your permit ... even though we fully acknowledge your right to park"

    One day it would be nice to see common sense prevail.

    Have you heard back from the IAS yet? As Umkomaas says that will be interesting.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,669 Forumite
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    In reference to the Jopson judgment that was mentioned, this judge (since retired) is not a senior judge,

    He certainly was a Senior Circuit Judge and the fact he has just retired is irrelevant:

    https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/announcements/senior-circuit-judge-retirement-harris-qc/

    At IAS you must upload all evidence including tenancy/lease, the transcript from Jopson, photos, etc. Have you done that? IAS will ignore anything a person says if not 'evidenced'.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • ncobo1664
    ncobo1664 Posts: 21 Forumite
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    I have another opportunity to submit a response, any advice welcome!
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,669 Forumite
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    Read every line of what you said, and check you evidence it with attachments. Work on the assumption the IAS is looking to kick your appeal into touch on any old excuse.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • The_Deep
    The_Deep Posts: 16,830 Forumite
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    I looks to me as though the PPC are dealing with this without the benefit of legal advice.


    Imo they are unlikely to take this to court, so it is imperative that you do so independently, either for interference with your right to "quiet enjoyment", privacy, trespass, or wasting your time, (or all four)..

    Two judges have found their behaviour unreasonable, so you should not have to try too hard.

    Get your landlord to apply very heavy pressure, complaining robustly to the MA, their Trade Association, and the Council Housing Officer.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • ncobo1664
    ncobo1664 Posts: 21 Forumite
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    My IAS appeal has been rejected. Here is their reasoning:

    It is important that the Appellant understands that the Adjudicator is not in a position to give legal advice. The Adjudicator's role is to look at whether or not the parking charge has a basis in law and was properly issued in the circumstances of each individual case. The Adjudicator's decision is not legally binding on the Appellant (it is intended to be a guide) and an Appellant is free to obtain independent legal advice if they so wish.
    The guidance to this Appeal makes it clear that I am bound by the law of contract and can only consider legal challenges and not factual mistakes nor extenuating circumstances. The terms of this Appeal also state that I am only allowed to consider the charge being appealed and not the circumstances of other drivers or other parking events
    In this case the parking charge notice was issued because the Appellant parked the vehicle in question on private land and is alleged to have been in breach of the terms and conditions set out in the signage on site which regulate such matters. The relevant term states that parking is allowed for vehicles fully displaying a valid parking permit within the front windscreen.
    The Parking Operator entered in to a contract with blank in August last year to provide a parking system for the benefit of the various owners and tenants of properties on this site so that only those who were entitled to could park there. The documentation provided to me that letters and permits were delivered by hand to all premises setting out in detail the nature of the system and how it would work and the consequences of any breaches. That was further confirmed by the blank News issue for October and the signage on site. I am satisfied that the Appellant was fully aware of the system and he clearly participated in it by displaying a permit in his car. The letter from the Appellant's landlord does not deal with this breach but the entitlement of the Appellant to park in the bay in question which is not in issue.
    The responsibility for ensuring that a permit is securely in place in the windscreen so it's contents can be read by an attendant is the motorists and on this occasion the Appellant failed to discharge that responsibility because the permit fell on to the front seat out of view of the attendant according to the landlord's letter. The remit of an Adjudicator does not allow him/her to take mistakes or mitigation in to consideration when dealing with Appeals. In those circumstances I am satisfied that this parking charge notice was issued lawfully and as a result this Appeal must be dismissed.
    The Appellant seems to place great reliance on the case of Laura Jopson heard by His Honour Judge Harris Q.C in the Oxford County Court last June. I have read that judgement with interest but know nothing more about it than the Judgement and the competing submissions of the parties. That case was clearly decided on it's own facts which were very different from the facts in this case and that decision is not binding on any decision made by another Judge in relation to this Appeal.

    All pretty ridiculous! They claim "The relevant term states that parking is allowed for vehicles fully displaying a valid parking permit within the front windscreen" but then say "The letter from the Appellant's landlord does not deal with this breach but the entitlement of the Appellant to park in the bay in question which is not in issue". They've just completely contradicted themselves.
  • DoaM
    DoaM Posts: 11,863 Forumite
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    What else did you expect to get from the Kangaroo Court?
  • NRH12
    NRH12 Posts: 8 Forumite
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    The adjudicator's decision seems to be based on the fact that you knew of the terms, and that this was sufficient to make the charge enforceable. There's no consideration of whether or not the "contract" is permissible under the terms of the lease and/or that the parking company has genuine authorisation to operate the scheme.
  • The_Deep
    The_Deep Posts: 16,830 Forumite
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    They've just completely contradicted themselves.


    Which of course which would go against the PPC lf this went to court.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
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