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Court papers ref BW legal/Excel

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  • STuartqaqcndt
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    I understand your mentioning the signage and authority, but wanted to get the main items down first so I do not get confused, as most of the references I have seen quoted are getting me confused, and a lot of the defences are using the those items in specific areas, so trying to wade through the swamp of info.
  • Loadsofchildren123
    Loadsofchildren123 Posts: 2,504 Forumite
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    edited 10 November 2017 at 11:09AM
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    I don't know where this distinction between a "skeleton defence" and a "detailed defence" comes from. Your defence is your defence and you only get one chance.


    The process is this:


    1. Claim Form is issued and served. Claim Form should (but often doesn't) contain details of what the claim actually is (the Particulars of Claim) (there is also provision for Particulars to follow after 14 days, but the Claim Form has to say this and PPCs never do this). *edit: apart from CEL who are now specifying further PoC to follow - there is a different procedure to follow here, please refer back to the sticky which tells you what to do and provides links


    2. Defendant files an Acknowledgement of Service and then a defence. You do not have to go into intricate detail, but must mention every defence you have and particularise (ie explain) each aspect of your defence in sufficient detail for it to be understood. If you don't, the risk is that you cannot run certain aspects of your defence later. A defendant is required to make clear in the defence what aspects of the claim are accepted or specifically denied, and which the Claimant is required to prove ("put to full proof"). A defence should be written in the third person ("the Defendant", not "I/my/me")


    3. Court looks at claim and defence and makes a provisional allocation to the small claims track and sends the parties a Directions Questionnaire. When both parties have filled these in, the court will then send the claim out to the Defendant's local court (PPCs often ask for it to be sent to THEIR local court but the rules are that it must go to Defendant's local court; PPCs also often argue for no hearing and for it to be dealt with on paper, but you object to that and ask for a hearing).


    4. Local court then confirms small claims allocation and sends out an order (called the Notice of Allocation) with a timetable for exchanging witness statements and documents, Lists of Documents, the final hearing and who is to file the court bundle for the final hearing and when (sometimes the order doesn't provide for a bundle for the final hearing, in which case you need to prepare your own at the time of the hearing).


    5. Parties exchange Witness Statements - these are factual, they are not for legal argument. You would deal here with things like the fact that x people are insured to drive the car (and exhibit the insurance), that the parking event was so long ago nobody can remember who was driving and the PPC is unable to provide any evidence of who the driver was. You might also deal with the lack of evidence provided by the PPC to back up its claim, breaches of the ATA Code of Practice, and if this is an inadequate signage case you'd also deal with the facts of that. You might also complain in your WS about how the PPC has not followed proper procedures and still hasn't evidenced things like landowner contract etc, but stick to the facts. Exhibit documents to which you refer in the WS. If you have other documents you want to rely on (that aren't exhibited to the WS) you also exchange these at this stage. The forum refers to this as the "Defendant's bundle".


    6. You comply with any other parts of the timetable the court has set.


    7. This is not provided for in small claims timetables, but many Defendants choose to file a Case Summary/Skeleton Argument a few days before the hearing. This simply summarises your case, your defence and your factual evidence. The aim of the document is to replace your oral submissions on the day (so you say to the judge that you are relying on what's in your skeleton and ask him if he wants you to add anything, and he may well say no - the only thing you then need to speak about is rebutting any points the Claimant has made on the day, unless these are dealt with in your Skeleton - it is best to point the judge to your strongest arguments and to make sure he understands them). If there's anything you forgot in your original defence, now is the time to put it into the Skeleton, but the court has a discretion to say that you didn't put that in your defence, you can't get it in now through the back door.


    8. If you want to apply for costs on the day you have to make a schedule of your costs (£19 per hour for a litigant in person, broken down to show exactly what time was spent on what activity, and direct costs such as stationery, photocopying, postage, parking at court on the day, loss of earnings etc). You must serve this at least 24 hours before the hearing.


    So please do not think that this defence is just a summary and you'll get another chance to put in a fuller one, because you won't.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • STuartqaqcndt
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    Ok now that is plain enough for me to follow, a great deal of what I have seen is the defences and trying to wade through what I need has been a hard slog. I am more used to ambushing the opponent, in my own field, and having the necessary points stated and lined up, and then arguing about the technical requirements/interpretation, so your comments are welcome indeed.
  • beamerguy
    beamerguy Posts: 17,587 Forumite
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    Ok now that is plain enough for me to follow, a great deal of what I have seen is the defences and trying to wade through what I need has been a hard slog. I am more used to ambushing the opponent, in my own field, and having the necessary points stated and lined up, and then arguing about the technical requirements/interpretation, so your comments are welcome indeed.

    You will do well if you use ambushing :)

    Excel and BWLegal try it on all the time and often get ambushed by the Judge
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,346 Forumite
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    I am more used to ambushing the opponent
    Wrong tactic in the small claims court. This isn't Rumpole of The Bailey!
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Loadsofchildren123
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    Umkomaas wrote: »
    Wrong tactic in the small claims court. This isn't Rumpole of The Bailey!

    The CPR are designed to avoid trial by ambush. I know the PPCs try to do it and often get away with it, but best to keep your powder dry and behave properly.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • STuartqaqcndt
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    Ok then, getting more familiar with what is required, I am intending to send a part 18 request which I understand is for information, not evidence, now who should this go to Excel or Excel and BW legal?. What is the latest it can be sent?
    Should my defence be stated before the reply-if any?
    Thanks in advance.
  • Lamilad
    Lamilad Posts: 1,412 Forumite
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    I am intending to send a part 18 request which I understand is for information, not evidence, now who should this go to Excel or Excel and BW legal?. What is the latest it can be sent?
    Should my defence be stated before the reply-if any?
    Thanks in advance.
    Part 18 is, technically, not applicable in small claims and the claimant is not obliged to reply but nothing wrong with sending one if there's some info you need or questions you want answering.

    If they don't reply (Gladstones usually don't) you can say this goes against the 'overriding objective' and is unreasonable.

    Why do you need to send a p18? Sometimes a SAR is better as that puts an obligation upon them to respond.
    https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/206890469-6-Subject-Access-Requests-Easy-

    You won't get a reply before you need to submit your defence so make sure that's done in time.
  • Loadsofchildren123
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    Is that right Lamilad? I sent a Part 18 Request in the one I'm helping with and can't remember Pt 18 saying that.
    If you have questions to ask then Pt 18 is the correct procedure I would have thought.

    sTuart when I get to work I'll post a link to the one I sent, it's all set out correctly.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • STuartqaqcndt
    STuartqaqcndt Posts: 25 Forumite
    edited 15 March 2017 at 10:00AM
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    Lamilad, Loadsofchildren, thanks for the contributions, Lamilad, I have looked at the stuff you have been doing and I am using some of it, but I am concerned that I will get too much info and not really understand what I will be saying if you get my drift.
    I am still unsure who should get the part 18 request is it Excel or BW Legal or should I send it to both.
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