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  • FIRST POST
    • rockingbilly
    • By rockingbilly 20th Feb 17, 10:59 AM
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    rockingbilly
    Fun & Games - PIP
    • #1
    • 20th Feb 17, 10:59 AM
    Fun & Games - PIP 20th Feb 17 at 10:59 AM
    Just had a letter from the DWP telling me that my DLA award is now suspended because I have not returned the PIP2.
    The form was sent to them on the 9th Feb - it was due back by the 12th. I paid £7.20 for Special Delivery as well and have a printed copy of when and who signed for it at 5.32am on the 10th Feb
    Anyhow just put the phone down on them and they say that the form is not in their office.
    My DLA will remain suspended until such time as the form is returned by the 12th March.

    Should I just hold fire and wait and see what happens? I don't have a form to fill in nor do I have the evidence that went with the original form?

    I'm sure that they are trying to make my life hell but I wont let them. Quite honestly I don't particularly care if I get the award or if they refuse to reinstate my DLA - I'll drop in a claim for Attendance Allowance instead.
Page 2
    • rockingbilly
    • By rockingbilly 8th Mar 17, 11:16 PM
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    rockingbilly
    Yes I'd call them up for clarity (if you feel you don't have it) and get the evidence they used (which could involve a report from the private medical contractors... albeit not from face to face medical) and their decision details. This sounds like far from the end of this story. Administratively they can be chaotic... I am assuming they have made it clear to you that your claim for PIP has failed following study of your PIP2 form and other documentation... but it is possible they haven't. It's all a bit unclear... because I am not familiar with the 'failed PIP transfer' type letter (I'd have expected more detail explaining decision)... but it sounds like you have significant disabilities... of course they don't necessarily translate from successful DLA claim to successfully PIP claim and the criteria and methodology for assessment is very different. But clarifications are needed... that a genuine decision has been made and is nonsense... if so reconsideration can be made. Keep us updated.
    Originally posted by Muttleythefrog
    The letter I have is 4 pages long. It starts off saying that they have looked at the PIP2 and the evidence I sent in. Then it goes into to weird lingo telling me the points and descriptors given and at the end it says that I am not entitled to PIP and that my DLA award which was suspended has been terminated from the date of the suspension.
    Then there is a bit about appeal rights for PIP and that I don't have any appeal rights for DLA.
    To me I don't see anything changing even if I did a MR. The impression I get is that my claim wasn't good enough to even warrant a face to face assessment!
    I suspect I know the reason - I wonder if there is a chance that I could put in another PIP2 form to supersede the first and get some professional help in filling it in.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 9th Mar 17, 5:22 AM
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    poppy12345
    The letter I have is 4 pages long. It starts off saying that they have looked at the PIP2 and the evidence I sent in. Then it goes into to weird lingo telling me the points and descriptors given and at the end it says that I am not entitled to PIP and that my DLA award which was suspended has been terminated from the date of the suspension.
    Then there is a bit about appeal rights for PIP and that I don't have any appeal rights for DLA.
    To me I don't see anything changing even if I did a MR. The impression I get is that my claim wasn't good enough to even warrant a face to face assessment!
    I suspect I know the reason - I wonder if there is a chance that I could put in another PIP2 form to supersede the first and get some professional help in filling it in.
    Originally posted by rockingbilly
    I can't see any point in starting the whole process over again, when you can just ask for a MR then appeal if needed. Putting in another PIP2 form when the chances of them rejecting you again would be very high because it's not been that long since sending off the first PIP2 form.
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 9th Mar 17, 9:12 AM
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    Muttleythefrog
    The letter I have is 4 pages long. It starts off saying that they have looked at the PIP2 and the evidence I sent in. Then it goes into to weird lingo telling me the points and descriptors given and at the end it says that I am not entitled to PIP and that my DLA award which was suspended has been terminated from the date of the suspension.
    Then there is a bit about appeal rights for PIP and that I don't have any appeal rights for DLA.
    To me I don't see anything changing even if I did a MR. The impression I get is that my claim wasn't good enough to even warrant a face to face assessment!
    I suspect I know the reason - I wonder if there is a chance that I could put in another PIP2 form to supersede the first and get some professional help in filling it in.
    Originally posted by rockingbilly
    Hmmm.. obviously have to use some poetic licence here... but the only logical conclusions are they didn't look very well at your PIP2 and other evidence or that you have hung yourself in some way... failed to provide indication of sufficient scoring descriptors being applicable.

    You don't state whether you got any scoring descriptors.... but I presume they add them up (if any) and sate them in the letter.... you may be close to an award. The fact that you haven't had a face to face medical which can be double edged sword... powerful evidence for you or them that you don't qualify or do qualify for PIP... means that in effect you don't have the usual problematic evidence to challenge in asking for MR or then later tribunal appeal.

    But to be honest... there's 3 immediate things you need to do. First establish what descriptors they awarded you and how close that took you to an award. Second establish what descriptors apply to you if you were assessing you. If according to you you should get an award (i.e. 8 points or more for Daily Living or Mobility) I'd consider pursuing the matter. I'd thirdly look at your evidence (PIP2 etc) and try to figure out if they've accurately reached descriptor conclusions and acquire the other evidence used (perhaps from your GP) and see if that sheds light.

    If you should get an award and feel they've reached the wrong conclusions I'd pursue a reconsideration as per above advice but i'd be weary that your own evidence may be problematic given they felt able to take a decision as they have done. Making a new claim instead... I'm not sure about that... they already have recent evidence of claim from you that they presumably could re-use to deny a claim on the same basis. Unless your health has changed since claiming or disabilities altered... then I would pursue reconsideration if according to you you should qualify. It is possible that will result in same outcome but a tribunal could take a different view and many do. Key is you focus on those descriptors... what did they award.. what should they award... how can you convince of the latter.

    But ultimately you're in better control of the facts.. it may be worth taking advice if you feel you're not well placed to deal with this. Get hold of any evidence they acquired to take decision that you didn't present... waiting for that could swallow up significant chunk of your month to get reconsideration request in.
    Last edited by Muttleythefrog; 09-03-2017 at 9:29 AM.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • rockingbilly
    • By rockingbilly 9th Mar 17, 4:40 PM
    • 616 Posts
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    rockingbilly
    I can't see any point in starting the whole process over again, when you can just ask for a MR then appeal if needed. Putting in another PIP2 form when the chances of them rejecting you again would be very high because it's not been that long since sending off the first PIP2 form.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    I understand that, but it does seem that the way the original form was filled in by the Jobcentre doesn't do me any favours. I knew I would be on a hiding to nothing having them complete it for me, but time was against me in getting it back to them. I did get an extension of 7 days but even that was still 5 days short of the appointment I had at Welfare Rights.

    I suppose the MR will be 'no change' and the worry is that if it went to a Tribunal they would take one look at what was put on the form and throw the appeal out.
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 9th Mar 17, 4:45 PM
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    Muttleythefrog
    I understand that, but it does seem that the way the original form was filled in by the Jobcentre doesn't do me any favours. I knew I would be on a hiding to nothing having them complete it for me, but time was against me in getting it back to them. I did get an extension of 7 days but even that was still 5 days short of the appointment I had at Welfare Rights.

    I suppose the MR will be 'no change' and the worry is that if it went to a Tribunal they would take one look at what was put on the form and throw the appeal out.
    Originally posted by rockingbilly
    The jobcentre helped you complete PIP2 'how your disability affects you' form (the lengthy one that goes into the various different 12 activities as well as asking for other basic information)? That might go a long way to explaining things if so...I would take a punt you'll lack for significant detail of your problems. Have you even got a copy of what 'you' said?
    Last edited by Muttleythefrog; 09-03-2017 at 4:47 PM.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • rockingbilly
    • By rockingbilly 9th Mar 17, 5:04 PM
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    rockingbilly
    Hmmm.. obviously have to use some poetic licence here... but the only logical conclusions are they didn't look very well at your PIP2 and other evidence or that you have hung yourself in some way... failed to provide indication of sufficient scoring descriptors being applicable.
    I did send them evidence but I had nothing that explained how it fitted the descriptors. I honestly don't know what was put on the form, I didn't fill it in. What I do know is that the Jobcentre just wrote (well I hope they did) down what I said in which case no descriptors were identified.

    You don't state whether you got any scoring descriptors.... but I presume they add them up (if any) and sate them in the letter.... you may be close to an award. The fact that you haven't had a face to face medical which can be double edged sword... powerful evidence for you or them that you don't qualify or do qualify for PIP... means that in effect you don't have the usual problematic evidence to challenge in asking for MR or then later tribunal appeal.
    Their letter says that I didn't score anything anywhere. The only thing I thought of doing was to complete a new form and getting some proper help. Alternatively get hold of a copy of the form and the evidence I sent in together with their reasons for the decision and try to explain using the evidence to show which descriptors apply?

    But to be honest... there's 3 immediate things you need to do. First establish what descriptors they awarded you and how close that took you to an award. Second establish what descriptors apply to you if you were assessing you. If according to you you should get an award (i.e. 8 points or more for Daily Living or Mobility) I'd consider pursuing the matter. I'd thirdly look at your evidence (PIP2 etc) and try to figure out if they've accurately reached descriptor conclusions and acquire the other evidence used (perhaps from your GP) and see if that sheds light.
    My main worry is that the form doesn't describe my problems properly.

    If you should get an award and feel they've reached the wrong conclusions I'd pursue a reconsideration as per above advice but i'd be weary that your own evidence may be problematic given they felt able to take a decision as they have done. Making a new claim instead... I'm not sure about that... they already have recent evidence of claim from you that they presumably could re-use to deny a claim on the same basis. Unless your health has changed since claiming or disabilities altered... then I would pursue reconsideration if according to you you should qualify. It is possible that will result in same outcome but a tribunal could take a different view and many do. Key is you focus on those descriptors... what did they award.. what should they award... how can you convince of the latter.

    But ultimately you're in better control of the facts.. it may be worth taking advice if you feel you're not well placed to deal with this. Get hold of any evidence they acquired to take decision that you didn't present... waiting for that could swallow up significant chunk of your month to get reconsideration request in.
    I did ask that they let me have copies of the evidence used for ESA and DLA but they don't mention that in their letter and they haven't sent me anything.
    Originally posted by Muttleythefrog
    I hope you don't mind me replying in that way.
    • faerielight
    • By faerielight 9th Mar 17, 5:04 PM
    • 1,546 Posts
    • 2,884 Thanks
    faerielight
    try not to give up, it's so worth doing a MR. Have you ever jointed "benefits and work? they have good guides on there about the descriptors for £18 a year http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/
    Many thanks to all who contribute on MSE
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 9th Mar 17, 5:26 PM
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    Muttleythefrog
    I hope you don't mind me replying in that way.
    Originally posted by rockingbilly
    Don't mind at all. Hmmm I'd try to chase up all the evidence in play then including your form completed by 'them'. I think only then can you really make sound judgement as to path forward. I hope you don't have the problems I did getting evidence... they can seem pretty clueless. MR or new claim though it would seem.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • rockingbilly
    • By rockingbilly 9th Mar 17, 5:49 PM
    • 616 Posts
    • 206 Thanks
    rockingbilly
    The jobcentre helped you complete PIP2 'how your disability affects you' form (the lengthy one that goes into the various different 12 activities as well as asking for other basic information)? That might go a long way to explaining things if so...I would take a punt you'll lack for significant detail of your problems. Have you even got a copy of what 'you' said?
    Originally posted by Muttleythefrog
    Yes they helped me, there was no other alternative because of the delay in getting an earlier appointment with Welfare Rights. On here I was told that they should give another 14 days but when I asked they just said 7 days.
    No I was not given a copy by them and they never copied the evidence that went with the form. I have nothing, I'm just hoping that they are able to copy everything and send it on to me. But given that they haven't sent me the ESA and DLA files which do contain some more evidence as well I don't hold out much hope of them replying this side of Christmas.
    • rockingbilly
    • By rockingbilly 9th Mar 17, 5:52 PM
    • 616 Posts
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    rockingbilly
    The real big issue is that I am 67, 68 in June and don't know if they would accept another claim. This was a transfer from DLA (HRM & MRC indefinite) to PIP.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 9th Mar 17, 6:56 PM
    • 714 Posts
    • 682 Thanks
    NeilCr
    The jobcentre helped you complete PIP2 'how your disability affects you' form (the lengthy one that goes into the various different 12 activities as well as asking for other basic information)? That might go a long way to explaining things if so...I would take a punt you'll lack for significant detail of your problems. Have you even got a copy of what 'you' said?
    Originally posted by Muttleythefrog
    Just to be clear on this Rockingbilly was given the completed form to take home. He has said in various places on here that he didn't read it at all, he did read it and saw there was a lot wrong and he was "working on the form". He did, therefore, have a chance to get a copy made before sending it off

    Unless it is an absolutely hopeless case I usually say go for the MR. Nothing to lose - but I certainly think, someone like Rockingbilly should seek help with it as he does seem to have a lot of problems with form completion.
    • Newly retired
    • By Newly retired 9th Mar 17, 7:40 PM
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    Newly retired
    The MR may not change anything, if my experience at CAB is anything to go by, but you need it in order to proceed to appeal.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 9th Mar 17, 8:02 PM
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    NeilCr
    The MR may not change anything, if my experience at CAB is anything to go by, but you need it in order to proceed to appeal.
    Originally posted by Newly retired
    Agree

    The tribunal figures are about 60% overturning the original decision at the moment. But if Rockingbilly got 0 points that may be a bigger mountain to climb
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 9th Mar 17, 9:21 PM
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    Muttleythefrog
    Just to be clear on this Rockingbilly was given the completed form to take home. He has said in various places on here that he didn't read it at all, he did read it and saw there was a lot wrong and he was "working on the form". He did, therefore, have a chance to get a copy made before sending it off

    Unless it is an absolutely hopeless case I usually say go for the MR. Nothing to lose - but I certainly think, someone like Rockingbilly should seek help with it as he does seem to have a lot of problems with form completion.
    Originally posted by NeilCr
    Ah right... that changes a bit what I had imagined happened. I note his age is 67... would a new claim would therefore fail? I think it imperative they get a hold of copies of all evidence used ASAP including their form and study the descriptors to see what they should be getting awarded in theory. I've a horrible feeling they'll again have issues of time as DWP could be slow or obstructive in that regard if my experience is anything to go by.
    Last edited by Muttleythefrog; 09-03-2017 at 9:28 PM.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • rockingbilly
    • By rockingbilly 9th Mar 17, 10:37 PM
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    rockingbilly
    Just to be clear on this Rockingbilly was given the completed form to take home. He has said in various places on here that he didn't read it at all, he did read it and saw there was a lot wrong and he was "working on the form". He did, therefore, have a chance to get a copy made before sending it off

    Unless it is an absolutely hopeless case I usually say go for the MR. Nothing to lose - but I certainly think, someone like Rockingbilly should seek help with it as he does seem to have a lot of problems with form completion.
    Originally posted by NeilCr
    The form was double Dutch to me. I couldn't make any headway with it so after the first few pages I gave up. What I did notice was the bit about diagnosis and medication/side effects - it was wrong in part and missing everything that I explained about how each drug interacted with another. I really needed someone to go through it with me but that wasn't possible due to the lack of time they gave me.
    I didn't copy anything, I don't have a copier. Plus I just assumed everything would be safe in the hands of the DWP.
    I admit that forms and such things are beyond my comprehension. That doesn't mean to say that I was never able to understand them in the past. Unfortunately for the past 3+ years my ability to take things in/concentrate/follow through with actions has deteriorated to such an extent that I just give up to avoid the stress of it all. All of this is down to the mental health problems that I have as well as the drugs I take.
    Anyhow I am now back where I started from I suppose. I have 30 days from the 2nd March to lodge an application for a MR. Getting an appointment at Welfare Rights based on my first attempt back in January is that there is approx a 5 week wait!!
    So it looks like no help with the MR AND I am not asking the Jobcentre for help again. I'll have to do it myself.
    How do I force the DWP to get a hurry on in sending me a copy of the PIP2, the evidence I attached to it and copies of the evidence that is with the ESA & DLA case papers - I only have to the 31st March to get the MR in?
    Last edited by rockingbilly; 09-03-2017 at 11:06 PM.
    • rockingbilly
    • By rockingbilly 9th Mar 17, 10:40 PM
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    rockingbilly
    Ah right... that changes a bit what I had imagined happened. I note his age is 67... would a new claim would therefore fail? I think it imperative they get a hold of copies of all evidence used ASAP including their form and study the descriptors to see what they should be getting awarded in theory. I've a horrible feeling they'll again have issues of time as DWP could be slow or obstructive in that regard if my experience is anything to go by.
    Originally posted by Muttleythefrog
    Any advice on how to get the DWP to hurry up then?
    I have no idea where to start with the MR as I have no paperwork to go by - not even the reasons about how the DWP came to make that decision.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 9th Mar 17, 11:17 PM
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    NeilCr
    Ah right... that changes a bit what I had imagined happened. I note his age is 67... would a new claim would therefore fail? I think it imperative they get a hold of copies of all evidence used ASAP including their form and study the descriptors to see what they should be getting awarded in theory. I've a horrible feeling they'll again have issues of time as DWP could be slow or obstructive in that regard if my experience is anything to go by.
    Originally posted by Muttleythefrog
    A new claim would likely fail. Could go for AA. To be honest, if he scored nil points, you need to go through all the descriptors with someone experienced and assess your situation against them. The detailed report is more useful when you have scored points so you can see what you scored and where. But, anyway, from #21 it sounds like he has the information they normally send as he mentions four pages, points and descriptors

    In terms of the PIP form they may send it back but could well take the view that a sensible claimant would have taken a copy so might not rush it

    In general MRs fail so, as I said on his other thread (and a previous poster said the same here) get something in, if he can't get help and take time getting ready for the appeal.
    Last edited by NeilCr; 09-03-2017 at 11:26 PM.
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 10th Mar 17, 12:52 AM
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    Muttleythefrog
    Any advice on how to get the DWP to hurry up then?
    I have no idea where to start with the MR as I have no paperwork to go by - not even the reasons about how the DWP came to make that decision.
    Originally posted by rockingbilly
    I would read the above post as I agree with it. I'd call them up and explain your situation of not having copy of your form... and I'd state to them that you are going to ask for a reconsideration but that you first need a copy of all the evidence used ASAP including a copy of your form. I suspect that the document you have already received is as good as it gets in terms of explaining the descriptor choices.. it may in effect be their statement of reasons... it's not especially detailed but you'd expect to say something like 'you reported problems with cooking but we determine that you can cook as you regularly make meals yourself'. If there's no point in claiming again due to age preventing you qualifying (AA may be alternative) then it seems to me you lose little by pursuing a MR and then potentially an appeal. You've not got long though... but if time does press then you can towards the end of your month call them and say you want a MR but that you'll be supplying your written submission shortly... they may be able to consider your MR requested in time but to wait for evidence from you before carrying it out.

    Unfortunately I can't grasp with confidence your abilities to manage these matters on your own.. often I'd quickly get a good feel for someone's competence in respect of such.. but I'm getting mixed signals..lol... you present to me on one hand someone liable to handle these matters very well yourself but on the other as someone who cannot. So someone else helping you may be necessary... what concerns me is that you seem to be making few waves in terms of determining if you should qualify for PIP... if you cannot determine that from looking at the descriptors then someone else may have to help you.... since the whole basis for any MR or appeal would be that you should qualify and you should do so because x is true and this is why... and y is true and this is why... and z is true and this is why. You used to get a good DLA award suggesting to outsider you do have significant disabilities day to day that may well lead to qualifying for PIP along similar lines. But these are technical questions that must be considered with facts at hand.. those facts will almost exclusively come from your experiences. There are some really basic things that need to be put in place before next step can be made with confidence. I agree with the above poster regarding their last point too... MR is necessary in order to appeal... if the wheels are falling off in terms of time and your access to support then the MR could be considered as the wasted but necessary step in order to appeal. That'd buy you the time you should need to get in place support and arguments for that appeal.
    Last edited by Muttleythefrog; 10-03-2017 at 1:00 AM.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • rockingbilly
    • By rockingbilly 10th Mar 17, 6:46 PM
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    rockingbilly
    A new claim would likely fail. Could go for AA. To be honest, if he scored nil points, you need to go through all the descriptors with someone experienced and assess your situation against them. The detailed report is more useful when you have scored points so you can see what you scored and where. But, anyway, from #21 it sounds like he has the information they normally send as he mentions four pages, points and descriptors

    In terms of the PIP form they may send it back but could well take the view that a sensible claimant would have taken a copy so might not rush it

    In general MRs fail so, as I said on his other thread (and a previous poster said the same here) get something in, if he can't get help and take time getting ready for the appeal.
    Originally posted by NeilCr
    Well at the end of the day whether they chose to cause delays or not, it is entirely down to the DWP to get their fingers out as without the documentation I can't prepare or even discuss with Welfare Rights anything if I have no copies of the claim form or the evidence I sent in. They are also going to hold things up as well if they take too long in sending the copied ESA & DLA files that were requested in early January when the PIP claim started.

    Yes the refusal letter says that a whole host of things the claim form said they say that I don't have any issues with them.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 10th Mar 17, 6:53 PM
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    NeilCr
    Well at the end of the day whether they chose to cause delays or not, it is entirely down to the DWP to get their fingers out as without the documentation I can't prepare or even discuss with Welfare Rights anything if I have no copies of the claim form or the evidence I sent in. They are also going to hold things up as well if they take too long in sending the copied ESA & DLA files that were requested in early January when the PIP claim started.

    Yes the refusal letter says that a whole host of things the claim form said they say that I don't have any issues with them.
    Originally posted by rockingbilly
    In which case you will be out of time on your MR

    If you have no issue with what the refusal letter says (I am assuming it goes into detail on the descriptors) then why are you appealing. Personally, I'd be on to Welfare Rights for an appointment and take the refusal letter with you - alternatively many CABs/ advice centre have drop ins - you could take the paperwork you have in and ask whether if it is enough for an MR

    The ESA and DLA forms aren't really relevant for an MR

    You actually need to do something right now - not sit around waiting for others and then moaning about them.
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