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  • FIRST POST
    • i8payingbills
    • By i8payingbills 19th Mar 17, 3:50 PM
    • 14Posts
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    i8payingbills
    Counter offer - what is realistic?
    • #1
    • 19th Mar 17, 3:50 PM
    Counter offer - what is realistic? 19th Mar 17 at 3:50 PM
    Hi,

    Firstly, this is a fantastic forum and does an amazing service to the public, please please keep it up!

    I may be given a job offer at another employer tomorrow - I certainly felt that the interview went well (they had to tell me that my answers were great and I didn't need to give any more examples!).

    However, I do quite enjoy where I work now overall, albeit:
    • The pay is poor
    • The department I'm in has a very uncomfortable aversion to any talking
    • Opportunities for promotion are limited
    • The location is not ideal

    Now, I would be disappointed if they (current place) didn't make me a counter offer, for several reasons:
    • They keep telling me how important I am to their long term plans
    • The team is about to go one person down (normal resignation)
    • It's difficult to train someone up to do the job to a high standard for at least 6 months
    • They just struggle to recruit in general because of the location
    • There is an new system coming on board that they have earmarked me to lead on

    So what I really want to know is, what can I expect to push them on? I was thinking about what would be my ideal offer, I suppose it would be:
    • Salary - match new job offer + 3k
    • Working from home - Set-up the means to work from home within 3 months, and to then allow WFH for up to 3 days a week (I feel like I'm actually doing them a favour with this one, as it's inevitable with the cost of commuting and the growth of the company that they'll have to do this for everyone).
    • Paid holiday - match offer
    • New job title
    • Formal commitment that a) I lead the new system, and b) My desk is moved to a different location within the building, on the basis that the new system constitutes a new business operation
    • Formal commitment that after 18 months, that I join the business development team with a view to leading marketing in the long term.
    • If they fail to uphold any these these conditions, I can terminate employment with a 3 month pay-off
    • If I leave for any reason (other than health related) within 18 months, I must serve a notice period of 12 weeks. After the 18 months, this period will revert back to the standard scale of notice period.

    Am I asking for far too much here?
    Last edited by i8payingbills; 19-03-2017 at 4:15 PM.
Page 1
    • 74jax
    • By 74jax 19th Mar 17, 5:13 PM
    • 4,459 Posts
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    74jax
    • #2
    • 19th Mar 17, 5:13 PM
    • #2
    • 19th Mar 17, 5:13 PM
    Have you ever asked your current employer for what you are now looking for?

    If they have said no, but then offer it just because you are leaving, are you sure you would stay?
    Forty and fabulous, well that's what my cards say....
    • sjbrun
    • By sjbrun 19th Mar 17, 5:50 PM
    • 403 Posts
    • 380 Thanks
    sjbrun
    • #3
    • 19th Mar 17, 5:50 PM
    • #3
    • 19th Mar 17, 5:50 PM
    Well we all have a wish list...

    but what is in a job title? Surly it's the job package that matters not the fluffy title of what they call the role?

    Generally I would ask for them to at least match what you have been offered elsewhere if you are otherwise happy there.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 19th Mar 17, 7:38 PM
    • 5,465 Posts
    • 7,148 Thanks
    TBagpuss
    • #4
    • 19th Mar 17, 7:38 PM
    • #4
    • 19th Mar 17, 7:38 PM
    I agree with other posters, what conversations have you had with them before? Have you asked them for a raise? Have you asked about working from home?
    Why would you expect them to pay you 3K more than the new job offer?

    If you are asking for a raise or for other changes it is usually sensible to look at why it is in the interests of the company. This can include

    - looking at market rates for your role, so they can see that the amount you are looking for is reasonable (and that they won't have to pay agency fees or costs of training if they keep you)
    - what value you bring to the company to justify increasing your pay

    The working from home thing - take a look at the government's guidance on flexible working requests, and model your proposal on that.
    What are the benefits to the employer of you working from home?
    What are the negatives? How are you proposing to address them? (note, commuting costs are not a good reason for the company, reducing them benefits *you*, but not the company, so think about any disadvantages or expenses for them, and how you can address them.
    Last edited by TBagpuss; 19-03-2017 at 7:54 PM.
    • i8payingbills
    • By i8payingbills 19th Mar 17, 8:25 PM
    • 14 Posts
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    i8payingbills
    • #5
    • 19th Mar 17, 8:25 PM
    • #5
    • 19th Mar 17, 8:25 PM
    I'll reply to this, but this will answer 74 and sjb also


    I agree with other posters, what conversations have you had with them before? Yes. The conversation normally goes along the lines of "we will make to you a senior and raise your pay accordingly, just give us 6 months/until the new system starts". I have some sympathy for my manager because I think that, while she tries to project herself as though she actually makes these decisions, the fact is that this is a director level decision so her hands are tied. Have you asked them for a raise? See previous Have you asked about working from home? Yes and no - they had given me remote previously but it wasn't for the purpose of WFH but for operations back-up, and was taken away soon after. I have said to them that long term they need to consider allow more people to do this, and they agree but seem to lack the sense of urgency in this regard.
    Why would you expect them to pay you 3K more than the new job offer? I don't, I expect them only to match, but I say ideal

    If you are asking for a raise or for other changes it is usually sensible to look at why it is in the interests of the company. This can include

    - looking at market rates for your role, so they can see that the amount you are looking for is reasonable (and that they won't have to pay agency fees or costs of training if they keep you)
    I'm looking more at the fact that they have just signed a global agreement that makes them a preferred partner throughout Europe, and the fact that they have significantly bolstered numbers at managerial level in the last 12 months. They are hardly struggling.
    - what value you bring to the company to justify increasing your pay I'm consistently nearly twice as effective as the average in virtually every KPI measure in my department - this sounds like a brag/!!!!!!!!, but it is true. And they seem to agree that I bring value, otherwise why say I'm going to be leading this new system project?

    The working from home thing - take a look at the government's guidance on flexible working requests, and model your proposal on that. Interesting, will look...
    What are the benefits to the employer of you working from home? Paperless, productivity (I'd probably work the hour I now spend getting there and back each day), test subject for future 'mass' WFH. I haven't had a day off ill in over a year, but there might be occasions where I could do the job but I don't fancy subjecting everyone to a snotty mess!!! It would also improve their environmental impact (my car emissions, electric)
    What are the negatives? How are you proposing to address them? (note, commuting costs are not a good reason for the company, reducing them benefits *you*, but not the company, so think about any disadvantages or expenses for them, and how you can address them. Data security - I probably need to buy a new computer anyway, so they can do what they like to make it secure to be honest. And my internet connection is tip top. If I need to get to the office, I'm not a million miles away, but like I say even I don't want to be a home all the time. And if they think I'm going to overwork, I know they have the ability to time-limit the access anyway.
    Originally posted by TBagpuss
    • Masomnia
    • By Masomnia 19th Mar 17, 8:30 PM
    • 16,899 Posts
    • 37,128 Thanks
    Masomnia
    • #6
    • 19th Mar 17, 8:30 PM
    • #6
    • 19th Mar 17, 8:30 PM
    Does sound a bit moon-on-a-stick.

    Better pay and benefits sounds fair, but they won't commit to giving you new role in 18 months time.
    I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled. - P.G. Wodehouse
    • i8payingbills
    • By i8payingbills 19th Mar 17, 8:38 PM
    • 14 Posts
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    i8payingbills
    • #7
    • 19th Mar 17, 8:38 PM
    • #7
    • 19th Mar 17, 8:38 PM
    Does sound a bit moon-on-a-stick.

    Better pay and benefits sounds fair, but they won't commit to giving you new role in 18 months time.
    Originally posted by Masomnia


    Haha yes it is ambitious, my concern with the new role proposal is that ultimately that's where I see a future for myself, certainly 5 years from now. I can't see myself doing what I'm doing now, even at a higher level, until my dying day - I think it's ripe for automation to be honest with you.
    • MEM62
    • By MEM62 20th Mar 17, 11:28 AM
    • 1,194 Posts
    • 831 Thanks
    MEM62
    • #8
    • 20th Mar 17, 11:28 AM
    • #8
    • 20th Mar 17, 11:28 AM
    If any of my employees came to me with such a list I would just accept their resignation.
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 20th Mar 17, 12:10 PM
    • 1,414 Posts
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    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • #9
    • 20th Mar 17, 12:10 PM
    • #9
    • 20th Mar 17, 12:10 PM
    Yes, far too much.

    But if you are happy to leave and that's what it would take to get you to stay, you have nothing to lose.

    If you actually want to stay though, just ask for whatever it is that would make you happy to stay.
    • Lioness Twinkletoes
    • By Lioness Twinkletoes 20th Mar 17, 12:50 PM
    • 1,048 Posts
    • 3,387 Thanks
    Lioness Twinkletoes
    I was with you till I got to the working from home three days a week and then the move my desk. I rolled my eyes hard at this. How old are you - 12? Do you want to sit next to your bestie as well?


    I think you'll be luck if they offer to match the salary of the new job. Have to say though, I agreed with MEM62. If you came to me with those demands I'd shake your hand and wish you luck in your new venture.
    • tea lover
    • By tea lover 20th Mar 17, 12:55 PM
    • 7,997 Posts
    • 35,683 Thanks
    tea lover
    I may be given a job offer at another employer tomorrow - I certainly felt that the interview went well (they had to tell me that my answers were great and I didn't need to give any more examples!).
    Originally posted by i8payingbills
    There are other ways to interpret that - maybe don't count your chickens about an offer from the new place.
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 20th Mar 17, 12:57 PM
    • 1,414 Posts
    • 1,940 Thanks
    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    There are other ways to interpret that - maybe don't count your chickens about an offer from the new place.
    Originally posted by tea lover
    This is a fair point. I interviewed someone the other day who wouldn't stop talking. As I had already decided he was not going to get an offer I said something very similar just because I didn't want to waste any more time on him.
    • stuart30
    • By stuart30 20th Mar 17, 3:39 PM
    • 495 Posts
    • 210 Thanks
    stuart30
    I was with you till I got to the working from home three days a week and then the move my desk. I rolled my eyes hard at this. How old are you - 12? Do you want to sit next to your bestie as well?


    I think you'll be luck if they offer to match the salary of the new job. Have to say though, I agreed with MEM62. If you came to me with those demands I'd shake your hand and wish you luck in your new venture.
    Originally posted by Lioness Twinkletoes

    I wouldnt im afraid to say..it would be a "Hold on a minute whilst i get my Tena lady pad...i can feel a bout of uncontrolled laughed coming and a little bit of wee coming".


    Just because WE love ourselves don't mean THEY love us as much.
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 20th Mar 17, 4:22 PM
    • 1,272 Posts
    • 1,177 Thanks
    steampowered
    Your list is too long and contains far too many requests.

    I think you need to focus on one or two things that are the most important to you, and ask for those.

    The request for a 3 month pay-off if you resign because the employer didn't deliver sounds extremely unreasonable to me. It implies a lack of trust in your employer delivering on their promises which will get their backs up. I would forget about that one.

    3 days a week working from home also sounds pretty extreme. I suppose that can work for some jobs where you are working alone and don't need to interact with colleagues but I think those are fairly rare. WFH for most of the week doesn't sound consistent with your desire to move into a business development role, or your desire to lead the marketing function.
    • leslieknope
    • By leslieknope 20th Mar 17, 5:34 PM
    • 151 Posts
    • 200 Thanks
    leslieknope
    • Salary - match new job offer + 3k - might be pushing it here with an extra 3k
    • Working from home - Set-up the means to work from home within 3 months, and to then allow WFH for up to 3 days a week (I feel like I'm actually doing them a favour with this one, as it's inevitable with the cost of commuting and the growth of the company that they'll have to do this for everyone). - unless you have a job that specifies remote working you're going to be hard pressed to justify spending more than 50% of your time working from home!
    • Paid holiday - match offer - fair enough
    • New job title
    • Formal commitment that a) I lead the new system, and b) My desk is moved to a different location within the building, on the basis that the new system constitutes a new business operation - this bit is odd. why do you need to move your desk? formal commitment on what they have indicated to you before yes sure, but the second part just seems self indulgent, imo. is there business justification to move you? i doubt it.
    • Formal commitment that after 18 months, that I join the business development team with a view to leading marketing in the long term. - this is another change/promotion that you would have to earn. at best they should offer a consideration. what if you stop performing/they find out you can't do that job?
    • If they fail to uphold any these these conditions, I can terminate employment with a 3 month pay-off - you should be able to terminate as every other employee in the company. they have zero reason to give you special treatment on this.
    • If I leave for any reason (other than health related) within 18 months, I must serve a notice period of 12 weeks. After the 18 months, this period will revert back to the standard scale of notice period. - is your normal notice period shorter or longer than 12 weeks? will this benefit them too?
    Originally posted by i8payingbills
    OP, consider how it will look to other employees if they see you using your potential job offer as a bargaining chip to get all of these demands. they will all do the same. unless you are a CEO or founder, you are ultimately expendable (and then even then you could argue they are too!) so i would be very surprised if you get half of these conditions met.

    and what's to stop you doing the same in 18 months after they have invested all of this money, time, office space on you? six months spent training someone up who won't demand quite so much would seem like a safer investment.
    CCCC #33: 42/240
    DFW: 4355/4405
    • jbond
    • By jbond 21st Mar 17, 1:16 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    jbond
    There are other ways to interpret that - maybe don't count your chickens about an offer from the new place.
    Originally posted by tea lover
    Yes, I thought that was interestingly worded!
    Why did they HAVE to tell you?
    They don't HAVE to tell you anything!

    You can never fully gauge what a potential new employer is thinking, even though you might feel it went well. Not saying you won't get the job, but DON'T say anything to the current boss until you know.
    • somethingcorporate
    • By somethingcorporate 22nd Mar 17, 10:24 AM
    • 8,769 Posts
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    somethingcorporate
    I think that list is rediculous - far too many demands and most of them unreasonable on their own, let alone when added to a huge list.

    If you worked for me I would send you packing. No-one is actually irreplaceable, regardless of the high regard you think you are held in.

    Have you even been given the offer yet? seems like you jumped the gun already...
    Thinking critically since 1996....
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