Windows and Lintels - Ventrolla

Clairebare1 · 8 September 2015 at 12:26AM

We have employed a company (Ventrolla) that are currently fitting some new double glazed pvc sash windows (removing the mostly rotten wooden sash windows - please don't shoot me down for this) and they seem to be removing the lintels to be able to fit the new windows in and just filling with a foam - is this right? The old sashes had a frame with the top part going into the wall and this piece of wood was above that, also going into the wall - would this have been the lintel? I have asked them on a couple of occasions and feel like I am starting to sound like a broken record, but something doesn't seem right. I have an old Victorian house (about 150 years old) which has a very shallow arch to the outside of the windows and now just brick on the inside. Is it ok for the bricks to be resting on the foam and ultimately on the window? Would the piece of wood they removed be supporting anything? I have dug them all out of the skip, but they don't seem to be a hard wood, would lintels in these sort of houses be a soft or hard wood? I am in a real worry about this and any advice / help on this would be much appreciated.
Many thanks

Furts · 8 September 2015 at 10:12AM

Photos would be needed to see what has been done. If the bricks form structural arches then matters may be OK. If not, it does sound wrong.

Meanwhile, have you taken on a reputable company with reputable fitters? Or are they fitters working as sub contractors earning little and not giving a monkeys about your concerns?

Also, what did you agree to as a contract condition before the windows were to be installed? Putting upvc windows into a 150 year old house is an area that flags up red warnings with regard to lintels and structural stability.

Please come back with some info and we will see where this leads to.

Ruski · 8 September 2015 at 10:55AM

By the sound of it a call to your local Building Control officer is needed - please post photos if you can?

Russ

Stevie_Palimo · 8 September 2015 at 11:02AM

Stevie_Palimo · 8 September 2015 at 11:07AM

In the picture above I posted #4 , Is it the wooden recess part that sat above the frame just under the brick arch ?

If so this is not a lintel and merely a secondary fixing part of the original sash window, I replaced lot's of these a number of years ago and we would remove all the wooden parts from the inside, There was a few occasions that a wooden type lintel sat above the frame and did not have the sash secured to it, This would be left in place and only parts of the sash and surrounding wood removed.

Clairebare1 · 8 September 2015 at 1:41PM

Hi all

Thanks for your replies. I will try and post some photos later after I get home from work.

Furts: The company has been in business for 30 years, but am unsure if they are sub contracted fitters, but I do know they have only recently introduced PVC sashes into their range - usually deal with wooden.

With regard to what was arranged, my husband arranged this before he went away, so not sure - he is in the army and is currently out of the country. He is back the end of this week, but trying to get as much information as possible to go to this company with.

Stevie: When they originally came to measure up for the windows they removed the some beading around the window on the outside and saw that above/behind the painted external wooden arch (which I think is the part that you are on about above) that the lintel was there and took the measurements taking this into account. But a few weeks later they had to come around again to re-measure as they had a batch made for another customer as they had been measure incorrectly. So the second people measured differently and the windows that are now in place made to the second measurements. But this piece of wood that the first measurers saw, and said was the lintel, was removed so that the windows could be fitted, as it came to the same level as the apex of the external arch lintel and the new window would not fit with it there.

The piece of wood that has been removed from each window was flush with the frame of the sash, but above it. From the inside of the house the frame went all the way around (probably about 25 mm thick on the side and the top, but the piece of wood in question was above the top part of the frame going into the wall at either side.

All these pieces of wood seem to be roughly the same width and depth - guessing about 40 mm by 90 mm, but they seem to be a soft wood. Would lintels be a soft wood?

Hope this makes sense and will post pictures later

Stevie_Palimo · 8 September 2015 at 2:08PM

Claire every sash I replaced never had a lintel in it and the brick arch work as per my picture would have the new PVC window sitting just behind this flush to it, Above this would be lots of wooden parts all making up a sort of frame that allows the finishing wood trim to be attached to it, I did only ever see what looked like one type of lintel item but the whole sash window was not fixed in any way to this and was not altered.

As long as they took out all of the window and surrounding wood that was all attached in some way to the sash and trim then you should have no issues here with what has been done but if you can post pics of what was removed and preferably what the window looks like in without any plastic finish on should you have any it will help clarify this, If not is there any left to be changed and if so can you remove the wooden trim to show it in place ?

Stevie_Palimo · 8 September 2015 at 2:10PM

Also when changing the wood to pvc here foam is required as there would be a large void on all sash windows and unless you was to plaster and render these up in full foam is the easiest way to fill the gaps.

Clairebare1 · 8 September 2015 at 2:46PM

Hi Stevie

I was there when a couple of the sashes and the frames had been removed completely, so you could just see bricks at the side, but the piece of wood in question was still at the top going into the wall at either side. This is when I questioned if it was a lintel. They have been cut off flush with the internal bricks.

I have no problem with the foam to fill the gaps, but also I saw a couple of loose bricks in the bay we have. I went back shortly after the new sash was put in and there were 4 internal column bricks on the floor, which I saw being thrown out of the window into the skip (I now have now dug these out of the skip also) and is now filled with foam.

This is just not filling me with much confidence if they are going to remove bricks and fill with foam - have they removed the lintels and just covering with foam (that was my point with the foam).

Stevie_Palimo · 8 September 2015 at 3:17PM

Without a picture it is difficult to see but from what you are describing here I believe there is nothing to worry about as it does sound like part of the internal framework made up that was removed, Bear in mind that someone measuring said one thing and another person something different means it is 50-50 as to being an actual lintel.

As for loose bricks being thrown out, Whenever I changed these windows you would often get this as they older Victorian houses normally and the cement does crumble away, If it was an external brick I would cement it back, Being internal and depending on where it came from foam in place will normally suffice.

If you really worried still get some pics as I suggested above to check over here Claire.

Furts · 8 September 2015 at 4:11PM

Clairebare1 wrote: »

Hi Stevie

I was there when a couple of the sashes and the frames had been removed completely, so you could just see bricks at the side, but the piece of wood in question was still at the top going into the wall at either side. This is when I questioned if it was a lintel. They have been cut off flush with the internal bricks.

I have no problem with the foam to fill the gaps, but also I saw a couple of loose bricks in the bay we have. I went back shortly after the new sash was put in and there were 4 internal column bricks on the floor, which I saw being thrown out of the window into the skip (I now have now dug these out of the skip also) and is now filled with foam.

This is just not filling me with much confidence if they are going to remove bricks and fill with foam - have they removed the lintels and just covering with foam (that was my point with the foam).

If you lack confidence with the work you have to consider the legalities. You have a legal duty to have taken into account the Buildings Regulations. Either you have made an application and paid for an inspection, or should should make a rapid inquiry to your Council.

Forget about FENSA membership, or the requisite self certification. This is barely worth the paper it is written on. Further, a FENSA self certification should never be relied upon when considering any property that is not of a simple cavity wall and lintelled construction.

Windows and Lintels - Ventrolla

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