Disability employment legal rights clarification request - Asperger Syndrome

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I have Asperger Syndrome, which in brief affects my ability to communicate socially in face-to-face situations. Employer used a competency-based interview, and surprise surprise, the competencies which relate directly to my disability (team work, and customer appreciation) are both highlighted as my weak points. As these relate to social communication, it is clear that these are related to my disability. Otherwise the employer said I was good with the technical side of things, i.e. the big part of the job.

I know some will go "come off it" and so on, but this problem follows me wherever I go seeking work, even for unskilled positions where you would not imagine great dexterity with these skills is required. I am nearly 31 and have never had a paid job, despite best efforts otherwise, but have good University qualifications, and have volunteered on occasions. I am currently not on any benefits. This is a big barrier to any kind of work. It seems this barrier will persist till the day I die. I am desperate for that first job, whatever it is.

I thought some theoretical examples might help illustrate my point.

Ok so let's start with a stupid example. Someone may be good at the skill of soldering - say for example someone else argues the reason they are unable solder, is that they have a disability which makes soldering difficult for them, and they demand a job soldering because they have a disability that means they find it difficult. This is a situation that I doubt will ever arise. Firstly, the person is unlikely to want to engage in such a role because they are unlikely to enjoy it. But in such a situation I suspect an employment tribunal is unlikely to help.

Wheelchair bound person applies for a job, employer says "can't work here, no lift or ramps and you have to climb some stairs". Equality Act 2010 says reasonable adjustments such as ramps must be installed. In such a situation, I suspect it highly likely an employment tribunal would help?

In my case I apply for jobs and competencies relating to my disability are judged as being not of the required standard for the post. I can understand why employers do this, they want someone who is able to fulfil all possible parts of the role. However, I feel I have been treated unfairly as the decision relates to skills dependent on my disability which is something I cannot control, rather than skills I either have or don't have. I am not completely incapable and I feel I would have managed with the side of work for which the competencies relate. It's not like I applied for a position in a call centre or sales where I would be using such skills minute by minute. I applied because I knew I had strengths in the technical side, as the employer stated in feedback. I feel the employer could reasonably anticipate I would have these difficulties as I requested adjustments for interview, which they provided, and disclosed the nature of my difficulties - and I would call to question why they bothered to offer an interview in the first place, unless it's just to keep their positive about disability two ticks accreditation. I feel there are reasonable adjustments which could be made to accommodate my difficulties if they pose as much of an issue as they suggest they will, such as taking on another employee's work, in return for them completing tasks I find difficult. I am unsure how I will ever get experience at these skills, if I am continually knocked back by employers.

So which is my case closest to - the person with the soldering disability, or the wheelchair user? I would argue it is closer to that of the wheelchair user. I have the technical ability to perform the technical tasks, and I would argue this is the big hurdle as I doubt there are a very large number out there who would have the technical ability. Although I might not be great at team-work or customer service, I am not completely incapable. My University qualifications also prove this to be the case. It is a difficulty with which I may require some reasonable adjustments, and merely providing the opportunity to engage in these skills may provide an opportunity through which to get better at them. I just need that "little ramp" and "height adjustable desk" to help me do my job. Had I not had the technical skill whatsoever, then I would be the soldering disability person.

A previous employment tribunal case, Hewett V Motorola Ltd 2004 (word document)
Mr Hewett, an engineer, had Asperger’s Syndrome. He took out a grievance regarding his appraisal ranking of SI (some improvement) as opposed to ME (meets expectations). He was criticised as being over-sensitive to banter (a manifestation of his disability). Mr Hewett went off sick in June 2002. In July, the employer began disciplinary action against him for his failure to attend work, although it abandoned this after Mr Hewett challenged its appropriateness. When his sick pay entitlement ran out and the company refused to continue it, Mr Hewett resigned.

The tribunal found the company had failed to make reasonable adjustments, eg adjusting his appraisal score to ME, adjusting the way he was questioned during the grievance to reflect the fact that he becomes stressed when he is cross-examined, and continuing to pay sick-pay because his absences were disability-related.
Source: http://www.hief.org.uk/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/hieftoolkit7.pdf

This case seems to suggest a possible reasonable adjustment is to consider competencies relating to disability as meeting expectations. For example things like team-work skills. Is this a reasonable interpretation? Could this extend to recruitment practices also?

Thanks in advance.
Wanted a job, now have one. :beer:
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  • Emmzi
    Emmzi Posts: 8,658 Forumite
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    Well, this is probably only relevant if you can gather sufficient evidence to complete a legal challenge, and I sincerely doubt that will be made available to you. FWIW I think some adjustments should be made but I am not sure it is reasonable to change someone else's job so eg they get all the customer work and you get an exemption. So pragmatically I would focus on what you can do to get into work, not to start legal action which will take a long time and be difficult to prove. (Is easier when IN work with the backing of your union to raise legal cases!)

    Have you ever done a work trial?

    Have you had training in recognition of social cues? (Think GP can refer?)

    Have you spoken to a disability employment advisor?

    Have you thought of going self employed?
    Debt free 4th April 2007.
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  • dseventy
    dseventy Posts: 1,220 Forumite
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    Wheelchair bound person applies for a job, employer says "can't work here, no lift or ramps and you have to climb some stairs". Equality Act 2010 says reasonable adjustments such as ramps must be installed. In such a situation, I suspect it highly likely an employment tribunal would help?

    I am not sure they would as you are not employed by them.

    If you were employed and then adaptions not made, I can see your point.

    The legislation you refer to (and the case) again refers to people in employment.
    Since you don't work there, you can't use them.

    IMO anyway.

    D70
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  • Hammyman
    Hammyman Posts: 9,913 Forumite
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    I would like to start this post by saying that it is not a dig at the OP but rather a story that Aspergers can be a benefit, not a hinderance.

    My youngest brother has Aspergers, also went to Uni. He started working in Kwik-Save at 17 and continued that part way through Uni, transferring to the local store with glowing references from the store he'd started at. He then moved on to call center work. When he left Uni, he got a job with a council in the HB department, rising to manager. He left there and went onto agency working at various councils throughout the UK and earning a ton of money because he knew the rules, regs and systems inside out because of the traits of Aspergers - he basically read the manual constantly to the point he knew it off by heart. He now works in our local council going round advising people on money issues.

    HE WOULD NOT HAVE GOT WHERE HE DID WITHOUT ASPERGERS. ASPERGERS WAS THE REASON HE ENDED UP EARNING TWO TIMES WHAT THE MANAGERS WERE AT THE COUNCILS HE WORKED AT.

    I would like to point out though that he never mentioned Aspergers when applying for jobs. Most people just thought he was a bit wierd - especially in Sunderland where he'd walk around with a great big massive Stetson he'd bought in America when he'd gone over there.
  • Savvy_Sue
    Savvy_Sue Posts: 46,024 Forumite
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    What the OP can do is stress the positive aspects of AS. Hammyman's post highlights what some of these might be.

    Also an employer is only required to make 'reasonable adjustments' for a disability. If a wheelchair user applied to work in my office, it would be darned difficult to get them up the stairs, end of. Putting in a lift would not be a 'reasonable' adjustment, because it would be very expensive and it would take up space which we're already very short of.

    Getting more voluntary experience may help: you might find that leads to jobs you can apply for. It may also improve your social skills.

    DS1 has mild AS: he's worked at a local cinema, made lots of friends at Uni, and now has a job in his chosen field. There are still things he struggles with, like using the phone, and he'll always be a bit 'different', but he's learned over time how to cope.
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  • wantsajob
    wantsajob Posts: 705 Forumite
    edited 28 April 2011 at 7:05AM
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    Emmzi wrote: »
    Well, this is probably only relevant if you can gather sufficient evidence to complete a legal challenge, and I sincerely doubt that will be made available to you. FWIW I think some adjustments should be made but I am not sure it is reasonable to change someone else's job so eg they get all the customer work and you get an exemption. So pragmatically I would focus on what you can do to get into work, not to start legal action which will take a long time and be difficult to prove. (Is easier when IN work with the backing of your union to raise legal cases!)

    What about adjustments for people who are deaf? The employer stated they could offer sign language interpreters, and a deaf person is as likely to have as much difficulty engaging with customers and team members as I do. Is one disability more favourable than another?!

    I have some evidence but did not wish to go into detail in the original post, as it was already quite long. I requested interview questions in writing as a reasonable adjustment. These were provided, but changed 3 days later to include the competencies mentioned in first post when there was no reference to them previously. If I was asked different questions to other candidates or the questions were intentionally tailored to my disability, IMO that is a clear case of discrimination.

    I am planning to send a request for information under the Equality Act 2010.
    Emmzi wrote: »
    Have you ever done a work trial?
    Never been offered one. Have approached some companies, but generally the response is that they would not do this as it costs them a great deal of resources inducting and training an employee etc. I have, however, completed a pathways to work programme arranged by a DEA.
    Emmzi wrote: »
    Have you had training in recognition of social cues? (Think GP can refer?)
    I have done everything possible all my life! I also have a great deal of experience with mental health services, and generally they are extremely dire - in fact I would say they did a great deal more harm than good and probably further accentuated my difficulties, by originally misdiagnosing me. I am open to absolutely anything, but there is just nothing out there.

    Plus I like to think of construing the difficulties in this manner. Would you expect someone who struggles to walk unaided out of their wheelchair for 10 minutes, to walk unaided for an hour, just because they show some ability to walk?! I hate the constant need for people to think that *I* need to improve and the fault is *ME* and under my control, when it is not. The only reason people do it is to *pat themselves on the back* for what wonderful skills they have of their own - it's true, but none of you will admit to it! Once people can accept me for what I am, maybe then I can go on to develop and become something better. I feel what I really need to develop in this respect is the environment of an actual workplace, rather than a voluntary position (which I doubt is ever quite the same). The reality is, even if I *do* get better at these skills, I will still never compare with someone without my disability. Maybe once I get a job I will shine like Hammyman's brother.
    Emmzi wrote: »
    Have you spoken to a disability employment advisor?
    Yes, she is particularly useless, if well intentioned, very nice to talk to, and extremely knowledgeable about working conditions at local employers (recommending avoiding certain Asda stores etc). But all she really does is a job search. Also put me forward for an interview for poundland - but then we're back to interview difficulties again. Been referred to Remploy who have been slightly more useful, and provided some basic support and I continue to go there - although I feel it is a waste of time and travelling costs.
    Emmzi wrote: »
    Have you thought of going self employed?
    Yes. There are obvious risks and challenges though, particularly in the current climate. As yet I have been unable to consider any product or service I could provide I feel there is a market for in which I could excel, etc. Again my social skills are likely to be as much a barrier there as they are at interviews. Plus I would need some capital to start with, which I am highly unlikely to be able to get access to.

    There seems to be too much emphasis on what you say IMO. More "gift of the gab" over-rules ability. Keep hearing of the no-hopers passing through my partner's place of work. When they interviewed my partner she is somewhat like myself, and they were uncertain whether to appoint her. In fact she thinks they only did because they were desperate for someone and she had the experience and could be thrown in the deep end - and the employer in all probability wanted rid of her shortly after. She has managed to stay on, but it is highly amusing that the managers interview people then bang on about how well candidates did and how great they were (no doubt spinning BS in the interview to big themselves up) - yet when they're appointed to the position they're late for work (lateness measured in hours), hungover, constantly using mobile phone, taking liberties with breaks, making every effort to leave early, making procedural errors which cost the company more than they earn in their wages repeatedly despite being shown the correct procedures numerous times. I can't help but laugh. My partner dreads the day they eventually find someone good who does better than her and the company decides to let her go.
    Wanted a job, now have one. :beer:
  • Googlewhacker
    Googlewhacker Posts: 3,887 Forumite
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    As above, it seems to me that you are stressing the negatives of Aspergers far to much which I guess is coming across to employers.

    Concentrate on the positives of Aspergers and you really need to learn stock answers for this so that you can bring this into an interview conversation.

    What do you hope to gain by going down the legal route?
    The Googlewhacker referance is to Dave Gorman and not to my opinion of the search engine!

    If I give you advice it is only a view and always always take professional advice before acting!!!

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  • Googlewhacker
    Googlewhacker Posts: 3,887 Forumite
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    wantsajob wrote: »
    If I was asked different questions to other candidates or the questions were intentionally tailored to my disability, IMO that is a clear case of discrimination.

    So on one hand you want it tailored to your disability but on the other hand you don't as its discriminatory?
    The Googlewhacker referance is to Dave Gorman and not to my opinion of the search engine!

    If I give you advice it is only a view and always always take professional advice before acting!!!

    4 people on the ignore list....Bliss!
  • heretolearn_2
    heretolearn_2 Posts: 3,565 Forumite
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    I can understand your frustrations, having had some experience of working with people with Asbergers (in the sense that they worked where I worked) and know they can do a great job, but in the right role. It's not easy to find an employer willing to take a little risk on someone who is a bit different or has a disability. Now I am in charge of recruiting, I have taken that risk a couple of times, and unfortunately despite our best efforts and their best efforts, making adjustments, it hasn't worked out. Which does make me think twice about doing it again, but we do our best to look at everyone individually and not be influenced by what has happened in the past with someone else. But a lot of employers, once bitten, twice shy. So it's even harder for you.

    I understand why you are getting annoyed, but as currently an employer, I have to respond to one of your comments.

    "However, I feel I have been treated unfairly as the decision relates to skills dependent on my disability which is something I cannot control, rather than skills I either have or don't have. I am not completely incapable and I feel I would have managed with the side of work for which the competencies relate."

    Employers still can and will make a decision based on your skills and abilities, whether these are under your control or not. They don't have to make allowances for this, their interest is in getting the best possible person for the job, and doing that is not discrimination. It would be discrimination if your disability made no difference to your ability to do the job (with reasonable adjustments if necessary). So a wheelchair user should be considered equally for a job where the only difference it makes is that they might need the office rearranged a bit, but a wheelchair user can't apply for a job that requires a different type of mobility, for example as a window cleaner, and then say that because their ability to climb a ladder is not under their control, the employer is discriminating if they don't give them the job.

    Unfortunately, although your technical side was excellent and you could have coped with the communications side, there were probably several applicants whose technical side AND communications were excellent, so the employer was quite right and legally sound to give the job to one of those people instead of you.
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  • PasturesNew
    PasturesNew Posts: 70,698 Forumite
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    I have Aspergers. I've given up with employers and the crazy hoops you have to seemingly jump through these days. I am just full of interview fail :)

    I don't understand what they want the answers to questions to be - and I give a fabulously cringe-worthy Aspie answer. So now I don't even bother applying or even looking, confidence has all gone.

    I write !!!!!! online, articles and fluff of no consequence or importance - this makes me a living. Maybe you could write important articles, based around your interests and knowledge and using those fabulously detailed Aspie research skills (research to the nth degree, then double check).

    You can't beat the system.... especially if you don't possess the verbal or debating skills required to beat them down at their own game :)
  • Savvy_Sue
    Savvy_Sue Posts: 46,024 Forumite
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    wantsajob wrote: »
    I feel what I really need to develop in this respect is the environment of an actual workplace, rather than a voluntary position (which I doubt is ever quite the same).
    I think it depends on the organisation and the voluntary position! I work for a small charity and we use a lot of volunteers: some of those who come into the office have defined areas of work which they take sole responsibility for. Several of our client facing volunteers have used the experience to get jobs either with us or in similar lines of work, or to get onto courses which need experience.

    Some of them are so 'regular' that I forget they aren't paid staff! We invite them to some social occasions as well.
    wantsajob wrote: »
    The reality is, even if I *do* get better at these skills, I will still never compare with someone without my disability. Maybe once I get a job I will shine like Hammyman's brother.
    The other thing to remember is that some of these social skills are actually a disadvantage in the workplace, or at least a lack of them can be presented as a huge advantage. You will NOT spend all day chatting on the phone / by the kettle or updating your facebook profile or otherwise 'wasting' time. You will NOT spend half an hour in idle chit chat every morning before getting down to work, because you just won't see the need!

    There are some people you want to ask if they can't just shut it and let the rest of us get on with our jobs ... not my current colleagues of course, but I've known people like that!
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