Vegan Living & Ethical Buying

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  • Ben84
    Ben84 Posts: 3,069
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker First Post
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    There is a lot of promotion for organic as better for the environment, but I doubt several of the main claims. One thing that stands out though is that organic and vegan aren't necessarily related ideals, in fact the two conflict, despite all the organic vegan products out there. Organic food needs fertiliser. They can't use the synthetic variety, so they use animal products. Blood, bone meal and manure. While animals don't tend to be farmed and slaughtered primarily for these things, using them still adds some consumer demand for these activities.

    Also, I feel organic is often getting a free-pass on environmental impact because these materials are presented as waste products, so apparently they're kind of environmentally free. But they do cost, greatly. Of course it makes reasonable sense to use them rather than dump them in a landfill, but they're still animal products and they're still just another high embodied energy and resource product. There is no green way to make them, so they are not a good answer to sustainable food production. If the big, wasteful animal product food industry vanished tomorrow, so would the major sources of fertiliser for organic farming. The thing is, organic farming doesn't really promote using animal products to make use of waste, it promotes their use as an ideal, the only way, suggesting somehow they're renewable and sustainable. This makes animal farming for food, with all its negatives for the animals and the environment an essential part of the whole organic idea. Connecting organic with vegan, and to some extent vegetarian ideals is dubious.

    Still, all that said, I sometimes buy organic products. I'm not trying to be perfect or hold anyone else to that ideal, just exploring some downsides of organic. Some aspects of it are genuinely appealing, but the idea it's highly sustainable, always good for the environment and animals is I think over-sold. Besides, it doesn't even avoid synthetic plant food. A large amount of manure, blood and bone meal from animals fed conventionally grown soy and palm oil is used to feed organic crops - so we can trace this allegedly synthetic fertiliser free food back through a very inefficient conversion process to regular old synthetic fertiliser anyway. How many more Kg of synthetic plant food is used to make a bag of carrots when you do it this way when compared to just applying it to the carrots directly? They just haven't solved the problems it initially seems they have solved.

    So, I still eat plenty of conventionally grown food and I think of the available options, it's one of the better ones. In other areas though, I have changed over to much greener cleaning and personal products. The vast majority of what goes down the drain here is biodegradable or as far as I can tell, benign (clay in cream cleaner, for example). Doesn't have to be expensive either. I just discovered that regular old table salt is a good exfoliant, rather than those washes with little plastic bits in. Solar panels are just out of budget, but we have vastly reduced our energy use. Lots of insulation and LED lighting have helped, and swapping some old appliances as they failed for newer ones that use less energy. Replacing my desktop computer with a laptop helped a lot. I'm not sure either way about green energy supplies, so I've focused on reduction. Repairing and re-using things helps a lot too. I don't have a car, so I shop where I can, including supermarkets. Being more green doesn't have to be expensive, in fact if it costs lots more all I can say is buyer beware, greener options are supposed to be using less of the things that cost - namely energy and material resources, so if the cost goes up a lot you're either using more, not less, or being over-billed for the things you're buying.
  • Thanks for all your replies!! :D

    I have had a good couple of weeks - very busy adjusting to being back at work (hence the absence from the boards for a while :o) but doing very well on the ethical living front ;)

    The farmshare I joined is excellent - I pick up on a Thursday night so can plan the weeks meals on a Friday and the veg and fruit has been lovely :D

    I had a look at the food project Savvy - unfortunately there is nothing local to me but thanks for pointing it out - its really interesting!!

    Ben84 - thanks for your comments - many of the local organic farmers here prefer to use green manures than animal products (although I doubt that they use it exclusively) but I understand your points regarding organic produce.

    While I agree with much you have said, (although I can't agree with your - 'in fact if it costs lots more all I can say is buyer beware, greener options are supposed to be using less of the things that cost - namely energy and material resources, so if the cost goes up a lot you're either using more, not less, or being over-billed for the things you're buying' - unfortunately the basic economy of scale disproves that statement as does the fact that more man hours go into the production of organic products) I also know from my own experience that the land management of those who choose to farm organically is much more sympathetic than those who use general commercial farming methods. While I try to grow some of my own produce, I am realistic about my capacity and therefore have to make a choice - while organic is certainly not perfect, I feel it is a much better option for the way I want to live and where I can reduce my environmental impact I will continue to do so.

    ahw23 - thanks for the link to hodmedods - I will check that out as soon as I finish on here!! :D

    Other things...I may have mentioned that I have found a great recipe for 'breadmaker seitan' which has proved brilliant!! I have started to make a full batch then slice it when its done and freeze the slices - its fab because it reminds me of the fry's burgers which I love but are ridiculously expensive!! :T Nomnom burgers :rotfl:

    My energy supply changes over on Wednesday so all my electricity will be coming from renewable sources :D I'm also hoping that I will receive a decent refund as I have overpaid for months so that will come in handy for my massive food order which I have started to put together....:eek:

    Its been freezing here over the past few days so I have been using the open fire most evenings - ds has a never ending supply of waste wood from his job so its costing nothing and helping the business out by reducing its waste to landfill!! ;) And before anyone shoots me down - I know that it's not the most environmentally friendly way to heat the house but a roaring open fire is one of my guilty pleasures and while I'm prepared to alter all sorts in my life, my fire isn't something I am willing to lose!! I love cold and frosty days snuggled up in front of my fire, listening to tunes with a glass of wine - quite simply, it's one of the things in life that makes me genuinely happy :D

    I am making leek and potato soup for lunch - produce from the farmshare - and finishing off my basil jelly which I started the other week but it didn't set so needs a reboil :( I also have an enormous cauliflower so I think I will make some cauliflower rice and a veggie chilli for dinner - I haven't done the meal plan yet as I came home Friday and just went into total slob mode!! :rotfl: Thankfully, yesterday was also a total 'do nothing' day so we didn't need a proper meal - we just snacked throughout the day! I really do need to get myself organised though - this working lark is getting in the way!! :rotfl:
  • Hi,

    I'm not sure if there is a thread which covers this already but I am a vegan who tries to consume as ethically as possible and wondered if there is anyone else out there trying to do the same thing in as much of a money saving way as possible!??

    I have recently had an increase in income and have therefore decided that from this day forward I will no longer purchase anything from any organisation that doesn't produce their goods ethically. It means that I will no longer use supermarkets; will either buy fresh products from a local organic box scheme or local organic producers; toiletries, household products and dry/tinned goods will be from a wholesale cooperative or a local health food shop.

    Tomorrow I will look at a greener energy provider- I can't afford solar panels at the moment but I can look at renewable electricity suppliers. I already bank with an ethical bank and am basing all my choices on ratings via the ethical consumer website.

    I know that this isn't going to be easy, not using any mainstream shops is going to take a lot of planning but I think its worth doing and hope that I'm not alone!! :rotfl:

    THANK YOU for doing this for yourself and the planet!

    I am trying to do the same as well. With every choice we make, we can really change the world. It would be great if there was more ethical banking as well. I think we can all look at moving to credit unions. Did you ever think of that as well?
    Love is the answer :j
  • Thanks AshleyBurf!
    I haven't really looked into credit unions - my savings are linked to my mortgage so there won't be a change there until my mortgage goes in a couple of years (well, 8 if they are right but they won't be!! ;)) but I will have a mooch...

    Solstice on Wednesday - I have everything I need now; veg, snacks, fruit, chocolate. I am doing chargrilled peaches in amaretto with avocado and salad for starters; stuffed portabello mushroom filo parcels,served with carrots in dill butter, acorn squash, black radish and Mediterranean potatoes as a main course; white and dark chocolate mousse served with raspberry vodka coulis for dessert then raw cashew cheeses with plum and brandy chutney with flax crackers and coffee.

    I am really looking forward to solstice - I'm going to pay off my first debt, a third of my second debt and have a lovely week of relaxation and spending time with my family - I can't wait!! :j

    I've decided to put off my wholesale order until feb - I've looked at what I have in and really think that I need to make a serious impact on that prior to increasing my stocks!! :o I am going to make sure that I get 2 months worth of toiletries/household for Jan/Feb then I'll just top up the veg 7 fruit box plus get any soya milk that I need to buy - I should be able to keep the expenditure to the very minimum for the first couple of months of the new year - I will get more organised as I haven't really managed it since starting work - better than I could have been but not as good as I want so time to rectify that! ;)

    Keeping out of supermarkets is proving a lot more simple than I anticipated - its actually having quite a significant impact on my expenditure so it will be nice from the new year to set some pretty stringent targets for food shopping - I'm going to have an annual budget due to buying wholesale and having a minimum purchase order for free delivery - every penny that I save will go towards clearing the debts and towards the car purchases - I want to get to the having free cash stage as soon as possible!! :rotfl:
  • I will be doing Veganuary in the new year and want to live in a more environmentally friendly way. My first change I will make is to ditch the disposable pantyliners and sanitary towels for reusable ones and a menstrual cup! This will save me money in the long term and reduce the rubbish I send to landfill.
  • Solstice was wonderful and I have paid off the overdraft!! :j:j:j

    I have a full week now before I return to work and I'm going to take the opportunity to have a good time and get everything in order before it all starts again! ;)

    I have several things I need to do - I've run out of marmalade so need to make some more; I have some tarragon left over so may make a tarragon jam to go with the raw cashew cheese that I'm planning on putting together in the next couple of days (I bought the ones for solstice and they were lovely but expensive...pretty sure that I can do it myself for less cash) and I'm going to make a job lot of injera to freeze :D

    I'm pretty sure that I can pay the credit card off next month now...I have a few quid to put to it this month and am going to try to minimise all spending until next payday so that the extra will clear any excess ;) - next year is looking good :D

    Right, off to check out the challenges on the boards to see if any will help! Have a fab holiday!! :D
  • Morning everyone:hello:

    Not a lot to report really - I've ended up out and about a lot more than intended over the past few days so haven't managed to make the marmalade or tarragon jam but froze the tarragon so that I haven't wasted it! ;)

    I am finalizing the finances today - I want to make sure that I start the new year totally fresh and organised and have no intention of leaving the house again until Tuesday so know that I will have no more expenditure!

    I have loads of stuff in the house to eat - ridiculous amounts really :o but will waste nothing so all is well...I still have to get my household/toiletry stuff but am struggling to work out how to do it - its all internet based and now I'm at work, I'm not sure how the delivery thing is going to work!! :( I'll suss something but it's just one of those things that I really didn't consider!!:wall:

    Anyhoo, hope you all have a fab time over the new year period - here's to a ethical moneysaving 2017!! :beer:
  • I try and live like this, but not to the same extent. I am vegan and try and do as much as i can ethically. However, it's a long process which i am right at the beginning of.
    GC £150 a month for food, toiletries and cleaning Jan £134.58 Feb
    Forever learning the art of frugality
  • Other things...I may have mentioned that I have found a great recipe for 'breadmaker seitan' which has proved brilliant!! I have started to make a full batch then slice it when its done and freeze the slices - its fab because it reminds me of the fry's burgers which I love but are ridiculously expensive!! :T Nomnom burgers :rotfl:

    Ah brilliant idea. Why didnt i think of this !? Made my first ever batch recently. Steamed the first lot. Then did a christmas type one which i oven cooked. My next one will be barbeque flavour .... maybe in the breadmaker ;). Do you have the recipe/ link please?
    GC £150 a month for food, toiletries and cleaning Jan £134.58 Feb
    Forever learning the art of frugality
  • Just a quick one as busy at the moment...k9s, try this:

    https://vegannosh.me/2009/03/15/lazy-daves-5-bread-machine-turkey-flavored-seitan/

    If it doesn't work just put breadmaker seitan into a search engine and it should come up! ��
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