Financial Protection in Early Dementia?

Fire_Fox · 28 February 2013 at 5:24AM

margaretclare wrote: »

Oh, thank you! Very much appreciated. We definitely should not be written off as 'elderly' or as OAPs just because of the year we were born. Having said that, not everyone is alike. We all probably know people who were 'born middle-aged' and I can certainly think of a few people of my own generation who speak and behave as if they were a lot older - and always have done!

Infections e.g. urinary tract infection, can cause confusion and 'behaving oddly'. This can be 'low-grade' i.e. not enough to be diagnosed except in the laboratory and maybe the person himself/herself hasn't even noticed it. One thing with 'older people' is that often they don't drink enough fluids. Maybe they were taught not to drink with meals, not to drink after 7 pm, I've heard it. You can get low-grade dehydration i.e. by the time you feel thirsty you're already dehydrated.

Thank YOU! We certainly have family friends who are 'old before their time' but many are just NOT elderly, regardless of chronological age. I do believe it's a state of mind plus how you treat your body plus health you cannot control. We have a dear older family friend visiting next week who has a serious mental health issue, but is just so much fun, looks gorgeous, never turn down a scenic walk and a gossip. Looking forward to seeing them very much. :cool:

Strangely enough my late grandmother suddenly had temporary 'dementia' from an undiagnosed urinary infection in hospital. My (long dead and very loyal) grandfather was suddenly accused of all sort of marital indiscretions to explain his absence ... :rotfl: We joked about it this evening but at the time more worrying than amusing.

teajug wrote: »

I am in my early 60's and I consider myself 'elderly' or 'senior' or 'old aged' or whatever. I would not consider myself as having the same energy or agility as some in 10 years younger than myself. When I received my state pension aka 'OAP' how else would it classed as... maybe it could be reclassified as 'middles age pension' 'MAP' or 'near old age pension' 'NOAP', or maybe refuse the Old Age Pension as the recipient does not want to be classed as an OAP. I must not put ideas into the government minds as they may put it up again and they will not let me have it until I am seventies or eighties.:(

I'm so sorry you feel that way

as I said it's not that way in my family. This is what my parents do http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/index.html

I don't have enough experience to speak for all but 'my' seniors ... it's based on a sort of average, not just the physical side (agility, energy) but very much mental outlook and open mindedness. The oldest of all of all my relatives of that generation feels unwell too often and is on a good deal of medication but at the same time is never home in the summer, still leads nature groups, is as bright as a button and would put younger people to shame.

They look like the archetypal 'little old lady' and I've know younger people do the 'aaawww' but just NO, NO and NO. My older relatives are amazing, I aspire to be like them but grow old even more disgracefully.

John_Pierpoint · 28 February 2013 at 5:53AM

Getting back on thread:

My wife and I have both struggled through with our widowed mothers losing their marbles (stroke and dementia respectively).
In both cases the period of incapacity before death lasted 4 years.

We both had Enduring power of attorney, mother in law's prepared by a solicitor, my mothers by signing the form costing £1.50, which I purchased on the way to the hospital and got witnessed by one of the nurses.

My uncle was struck down, with what was thought to be a TIA (mini stroke), Before the correct diagnosis had been made, I was already getting the "Is he self funding?" treatment. [If you act dumb, that will be translated as "Does he own his own home"] I had to explain that I had no knowledge of his finances or care wishes.
Under the new "Lasting" system the power of attorney has to have all its Is dotted and Ts crossed in advance, and now costs several hundred pounds in government fees, and takes weeks; not to mention legal costs if you don't get it organised well in advance of need. For most people all this time and money will be wasted as the person involved will die, before the lasting power of attorney has been registered or needed.
In the event, after about 6 weeks, during which I went on holiday, the NHS got the diagnosis almost correct and realised that Uncle's condition was terminal. In this situation the NHS is authorised to finance "hospice" care [This was treated as a best kept secret, while I struggled with the (then) fiasco of the LPA system].

With our mums, even though we had documentation in place, we never used it correctly.
There is better than a 50:50 chance that an initial contact about a financial matter will be received by a clerk who has no training in power of attorney. Beware of such nonsense as "The manager is not here you will have to come back tomorrow". "This is dated more than 18 months ago, you need to get it re-signed". "This account can only be operated by the account holder in person".............

So my advice is this:
Get on the inside track with the elderly person in advance of loss of capacity. Obviously this cannot be done by suggesting that the elderly relative is losing the plot, however by treating the situation as a "health check" on their finances, using your expertise as an MSE person, you will almost certainly find ways of improving the yield of savings accounts, reducing energy bills, and especially checking the tax payable. [Are they getting the age allowance ? Do you know what a "K" code for PAYE against a pension is?]

The objective is to turn looking after the financial administration into a joint venture; ideally on line and with finance coming into one bank account and payments out of another. Then not only is the elderly person better off and protected from wasting money on unsuitable expenditure. When there is a crisis the other partner in the joint venture can carry on. To protect your position, I would recommend keeping all receipts and preparing immaculate reconciled accounts. The latter is a requirement of a registered Lasting Power of Attorney anyway.

mumps · 28 February 2013 at 8:51AM

I think alot of how you feel about being called old or elderly depends on if you see it as negative. Someone talked about people not being "elderly" despite their chronological age. I suppose I might see them as elderly but I just see that as a reflection of their chronological age not something that defines them as a person. My grandchildren are children, that is a fact based on their chronological age but I can describe my grandson as very bright, mature for his age,doing very well at school etc but none of that alters the fact that he is a child. I am nearly 60, that is a fact. People often think I am at least ten years younger, I am lucky in that I am fit, I don't have a weight issue, I don't have arthritis or any of those deilitating conditions. I have been asked by younger people how I have such good skin at my age and it is nice to feel you look good for your age. I work with younger people, I don't define myself as needing to fit in with certain people but am I still young? No Iam not. Am I old? Well I am certainly on the border, I suppose I can just get away with saying I am middle aged but only just. If average life span is somewhere in the 80s, which I think it is, when does old start?

Perhaps it depends on our own experience and in my family granny has always been the most honoured position. When I became a granny ten years ago some people were amazed that I wanted to be called granny as it sounds old, I couldn't understand that, are nana's and nanny's younger than granny? I love being a granny and if I am remembered the way I remember my grannies or my children felt aout their grannies that will do me nicely, far better than being remembered as never being old despite living to 90 which I intend to do.

mumps · 28 February 2013 at 9:09AM

Fire_Fox wrote: »

Thank YOU! We certainly have family friends who are 'old before their time' but many are just NOT elderly, regardless of chronological age. I do believe it's a state of mind plus how you treat your body plus health you cannot control. We have a dear older family friend visiting next week who has a serious mental health issue, but is just so much fun, looks gorgeous, never turn down a scenic walk and a gossip. Looking forward to seeing them very much. :cool:

Strangely enough my late grandmother suddenly had temporary 'dementia' from an undiagnosed urinary infection in hospital. My (long dead and very loyal) grandfather was suddenly accused of all sort of marital indiscretions to explain his absence ... :rotfl: We joked about it this evening but at the time more worrying than amusing.

I'm so sorry you feel that way as I said it's not that way in my family. This is what my parents do http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/index.html

I don't have enough experience to speak for all but 'my' seniors ... it's based on a sort of average, not just the physical side (agility, energy) but very much mental outlook and open mindedness. The oldest of all of all my relatives of that generation feels unwell too often and is on a good deal of medication but at the same time is never home in the summer, still leads nature groups, is as bright as a button and would put younger people to shame.

They look like the archetypal 'little old lady' and I've know younger people do the 'aaawww' but just NO, NO and NO. My older relatives are amazing, I aspire to be like them but grow old even more disgracefully.

But why do you assume that old people can't do all those things and more? Do you think calling them seniors is somehow better, doesn't it just mean the same thing, a reflection of their chronological age not a definition of them as people.

teajug · 28 February 2013 at 9:32AM

Fire_Fox wrote: »

I'm so sorry you feel that way as I said it's not that way in my family. This is what my parents do http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/index.html

I don't have enough experience to speak for all but 'my' seniors ... it's based on a sort of average, not just the physical side (agility, energy) but very much mental outlook and open mindedness. The oldest of all of all my relatives of that generation feels unwell too often and is on a good deal of medication but at the same time is never home in the summer, still leads nature groups, is as bright as a button and would put younger people to shame.

They look like the archetypal 'little old lady' and I've know younger people do the 'aaawww' but just NO, NO and NO. My older relatives are amazing, I aspire to be like them but grow old even more disgracefully.

I do not know what you mean, as I have not mentioned that I have got any disabilities.

Please see the definitions of 'elderly' and 'senior' which none of them are derogatory.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elderly

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/senior

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/old+age

teajug · 28 February 2013 at 9:54AM

BTW I know of an 'elderly' gentleman that will be 104 in April. When he reached his 100 birthday it was celebrated with all his family (a big do for all, with the Queen birthday card etc) this 'elderly' man cope very well living in his home with carers calling in daily to help. Last year a members of his family thought that he was getting forgetful and was put in a care home, the 'elderly' man was able to walk into the care home himself without any help from his relative that was with him. That same member of family has control of his finances and said on Christmas day that his relative is now been kept in bed all day long in the care home. The relative seemed oblivious to the fact that being kept in bed all day long with no gentle exercises would be the end of him and will probably not reach his 104 birthday.

sleepless_saver · 28 February 2013 at 5:40PM

Getting back on track again, if your relative agrees, they could register with CIFAS for protection against identity fraud which seems to be a potential concern. http://www.cifas.org.uk/pr_for_individuals

Also, if they do turn out to have long term mental problems, it could be worth them considering the version of Truecall https://www.truecall.co.uk/care.aspx for potentially vulnerable people. Essentially it only lets trusted callers through so there is no chance of phone scammers contacting your relative.

Fire_Fox · 28 February 2013 at 6:10PM

mumps wrote: »

But why do you assume that old people can't do all those things and more? Do you think calling them seniors is somehow better, doesn't it just mean the same thing, a reflection of their chronological age not a definition of them as people.

Most of the active Silk Routers are long since retired, so I guess it depends what chronological age or mental attitude we deem to be 'old' or 'elderly'. You need a certain level of physical health and mental strength to do the SR stuff: it's off the beaten track with risks, dangerous roads and countries, inclement weather including sandstorms and extremely cold nights, no nice caravan sites. One couple from the South America trip got stuck down a ravine when a bridge collapsed! :eek: I'm very proud of my parents for what they have achieved in their working lives and in retirement.

I picked out the use of the word senior from Teajug's post it's not the terminology I generally use but IMO more descriptive of my relatives than 'elderly' since it infers that you are no longer 'junior'. Some of these terms suggest to me that we are ancient/ decrepit at 50 or 60, yet that could be only half to two thirds of the way through life and still having crazy adventures. Most often I describe my sixty something parents as either retired or middle aged, my seventy something relatives I most often describe as either retired or ... seventy something!

teajug wrote: »

I do not know what you mean, as I have not mentioned that I have got any disabilities.

Please see the definitions of 'elderly' and 'senior' which none of them are derogatory.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elderly

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/senior

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/old+age

Confused: I didn't say anything about a disability in the post you quoted.

I've worked in healthcare for twenty years, so my understanding of elderly comes from that field. It's not simply a case of derogatory - it was another poster who used that word - it's a case of being inappropriate for my relatives. Although sadly it seems the relative who is the subject of this thread may become 'elderly', needing more care and support sooner rather than later.

There is a certain image that comes to the mind of many when a very petite single lady that many would describe as 'elderly' (my seventy something aunt) has her purse pickpocketed, epitomised by my colleagues at the time responding with "aaaawww". None of my sixty and seventy something relatives are cute or to be pitied or patronised, all put many a third of their age to shame intellectually and have a better social life than I do! :rotfl:

Fire_Fox · 28 February 2013 at 6:29PM

sleepless_saver wrote: »

Getting back on track again, if your relative agrees, they could register with CIFAS for protection against identity fraud which seems to be a potential concern. http://www.cifas.org.uk/pr_for_individuals

Also, if they do turn out to have long term mental problems, it could be worth them considering the version of Truecall https://www.truecall.co.uk/care.aspx for potentially vulnerable people. Essentially it only lets trusted callers through so there is no chance of phone scammers contacting your relative.

Both very helpful thanks, I will pass these on. My relative has had another call from the scammers :eek: and spoke to them again even tho they were told to put the phone down! No payment details given this time tho.

I chatted to some of the family last night about the PoA too and they now agree the paperwork needs to be started sooner rather than later even tho it (hopefully) won't be actioned for a while, they agree the Court of Protection route is to be avoided if possible. Next step is to broach the subject with the relative themselves and the adult child.

Fire_Fox · 28 February 2013 at 6:55PM

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Getting back on thread:

My wife and I have both struggled through with our widowed mothers losing their marbles (stroke and dementia respectively).
In both cases the period of incapacity before death lasted 4 years.

We both had Enduring power of attorney, mother in law's prepared by a solicitor, my mothers by signing the form costing £1.50, which I purchased on the way to the hospital and got witnessed by one of the nurses.

My uncle was struck down, with what was thought to be a TIA (mini stroke), Before the correct diagnosis had been made, I was already getting the "Is he self funding?" treatment. [If you act dumb, that will be translated as "Does he own his own home"] I had to explain that I had no knowledge of his finances or care wishes.
Under the new "Lasting" system the power of attorney has to have all its Is dotted and Ts crossed in advance, and now costs several hundred pounds in government fees, and takes weeks; not to mention legal costs if you don't get it organised well in advance of need. For most people all this time and money will be wasted as the person involved will die, before the lasting power of attorney has been registered or needed.
In the event, after about 6 weeks, during which I went on holiday, the NHS got the diagnosis almost correct and realised that Uncle's condition was terminal. In this situation the NHS is authorised to finance "hospice" care [This was treated as a best kept secret, while I struggled with the (then) fiasco of the LPA system].

With our mums, even though we had documentation in place, we never used it correctly.
There is better than a 50:50 chance that an initial contact about a financial matter will be received by a clerk who has no training in power of attorney. Beware of such nonsense as "The manager is not here you will have to come back tomorrow". "This is dated more than 18 months ago, you need to get it re-signed". "This account can only be operated by the account holder in person".............

So my advice is this:
Get on the inside track with the elderly person in advance of loss of capacity. Obviously this cannot be done by suggesting that the elderly relative is losing the plot, however by treating the situation as a "health check" on their finances, using your expertise as an MSE person, you will almost certainly find ways of improving the yield of savings accounts, reducing energy bills, and especially checking the tax payable. [Are they getting the age allowance ? Do you know what a "K" code for PAYE against a pension is?]

The objective is to turn looking after the financial administration into a joint venture; ideally on line and with finance coming into one bank account and payments out of another. Then not only is the elderly person better off and protected from wasting money on unsuitable expenditure. When there is a crisis the other partner in the joint venture can carry on. To protect your position, I would recommend keeping all receipts and preparing immaculate reconciled accounts. The latter is a requirement of a registered Lasting Power of Attorney anyway.

Thanks for your input. A lot of this financial stuff will be done by the adult child probably with the support of my relative's sibling, I certainly won't be named or directly involved. Agree online banking is a good idea since the adult child is not on the doorstep. But my relative will not have access to/ use that, they are a complete technophobe.

I found out yesterday two family members (adult child and close sibling so both trusted implicitly) know the relative's PIN which banks can be awkward about due to terms and conditions, so another reason to get the PoA started I think. I have suggested we point out other family of the same generation set up a PoA many years ago and it remains largely unused, it was forward planning not an indication that anyone intended to take over.

We hope the relative will sell up and move closer to other family members but still remain independent, I have indicated I will move to help out if needs be. But there is the spouse to consider who is, as I said, quite a bit older and has physical health problems. They do have care needs I think, but I don't think they will accept any help at this stage. I was told yesterday the relative with early dementia takes sole responsibility for the prescription medication of their spouse so that's another issue to consider.

They will be self funding for a while if they sold their home, and there could be more money 'from the family pot' if that ran out and the state would not help. We only want to safeguard from scammers and con artists, we are not trying to secure inheritance or anything awful like that.

Financial Protection in Early Dementia?

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