TWO UKCPM PCN's

Haj · 17 April 2017 at 11:11PM

Hi,

Would really appreciate some advice on TWO recent PCN's i received in the same location. The Car park belongs to the serviced offices were i work and i just plainly forgot to display my permit on both occasions

. As I was borrowing my father's car at the time the FORMAL DEMAND letter that just came through the post is obviously addressed to him and i'm appealing on his behalf. By the way I have already asked the office management to help but they aren't able to assist.

Question1: Would i need to amend the template from the newbies thread at all or do i just simply send them exactly the same appeal letter for both occasions? (still waiting for the 2nd demand to come)

Question2: Should i be asking them to provide profit/loss details to justify the charge in the appeals letter?

Also after reading some more about IPC members on here I'm thinking if i should just pay up as it seems highly likely CPM will reject the two appeals and then refer to a DCA then possibly onto court which in itself will cause me so much grief from the old man as he would need to attend if it ends up that way. Not sure what to do here.

Any additional advice much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Blibble · 18 April 2017 at 7:28AM

Question 1: Yes. Send the IPC appeal in sticky thread as this has been crafted for that purpose, and send it for both PCNs

Question 2: What good with profit / loss details achieve? Unless you fancy that getting a role as the PPC's on call accountant would get you off the PCN (you're welcome to try) then this is irrelevant, particular if you wish to argue that the values on the PCN are not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

Do you live with your father? Are you able to supply your address as the forwarding address to manage the appeals, so any correspondence goes to you & not your father in order to stop him stressing out?

Please don't just pay them, otherwise you'll be unnecessarily adding to their profit / loss details on the wrong side.

Fruitcake · 18 April 2017 at 8:35AM

As above, send the IPC template exactly as it appears, as the (day to day)keeper on the day of the alleged event. One template for each PCN.

Debt collectors have no powers and can safely be ignored. The NEWBIES thread explains this.

Half_way · 18 April 2017 at 8:44AM

Does the lease on the office include parking?
what does it say about permits?

Haj · 18 April 2017 at 11:31AM

Blibble wrote: »

Question 1: Yes. Send the IPC appeal in sticky thread as this has been crafted for that purpose, and send it for both PCNs

Question 2: What good with profit / loss details achieve? Unless you fancy that getting a role as the PPC's on call accountant would get you off the PCN (you're welcome to try) then this is irrelevant, particular if you wish to argue that the values on the PCN are not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

Do you live with your father? Are you able to supply your address as the forwarding address to manage the appeals, so any correspondence goes to you & not your father in order to stop him stressing out?

Please don't just pay them, otherwise you'll be unnecessarily adding to their profit / loss details on the wrong side.

Hi Blibble,

Thanks for your reply. Yes i do live with him so difficult to have sent elsewhere, unless i have them sent to my office address somehow. Do you think that could work?

Haj · 18 April 2017 at 11:33AM

Half_way wrote: »

Does the lease on the office include parking?
what does it say about permits?

Hi Halfway,

Permit is included in the lease but I will need to double check on what it says exactly re displaying permits.

Umkomaas · 18 April 2017 at 12:52PM

Haj wrote: »

Hi Halfway,

Permit is included in the lease but I will need to double check on what it says exactly re displaying permits.

The lease is critical, but I suspect it will say precious little about permits (we haven't seen many - or even any - that have) which won't be good news for the PPC.

Haj · 19 April 2017 at 8:11PM

Hi guys,

I'm pretty certain the answer would be a no here but in the interest of keeping my father out of this whole situation would this appeal work if i fill out the TRANSFER OF LIABILITY section of the Formal Demand letter with my details (as in user of the car at the time). I could then start the appeal under my name instead of his? Possible?

Coupon-mad · 19 April 2017 at 9:23PM

Yes it is possible, if a person (keeper) is so vulnerable that they can't cope with it then yes.

Or maybe appeal using your address but his name as keeper and write in HIS NAME, telling UKCPM this is the address for service and not to use the old address - at least then you would see every letter, not him. Most cases never go to court so it might then just be a matter of ignoring letters demanding money.

Could appeal in his name with your address, saying that he was not the driver but the driver has every right to park at that location as an employee, given the terms under which the company lease the site, they have primacy of contract and rights of way. I am assuming they do, most modern leases including a car park would extend to rights of way and easements over time (before UKCPM rocked up - and why the heck did they, who needs them?!).

However, it is very possible that UKCPM might still press ahead as it's 2 x £100 and he would have to be at the hearing unless you replied (as him) in time to a Gladstones LBC, naming the driver and giving your address as a last resort (before proceedings).

Can be a good bet to wait and only do this late because then:

- the named driver, if pursued, can say they were never sent any letters about it so have not had a fair chance to respond

- the keeper, if wrongly still pursued, has a VERY good defence that they have already discharged liability before proceedings, by naming the driver & giving an address for service (end of liability for Dad, but if the court claim arrived in his name he'd still have to be the defendant).

Up to you.

Haj · 19 April 2017 at 11:12PM

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Yes it is possible, if a person (keeper) is so vulnerable that they can't cope with it then yes.

Or maybe appeal using your address but his name as keeper and write in HIS NAME, telling UKCPM this is the address for service and not to use the old address - at least then you would see every letter, not him. Most cases never go to court so it might then just be a matter of ignoring letters demanding money.

Could appeal in his name with your address, saying that he was not the driver but the driver has every right to park at that location as an employee, given the terms under which the company lease the site, they have primacy of contract and rights of way. I am assuming they do, most modern leases including a car park would extend to rights of way and easements over time (before UKCPM rocked up - and why the heck did they, who needs them?!).

However, it is very possible that UKCPM might still press ahead as it's 2 x £100 and he would have to be at the hearing unless you replied (as him) in time to a Gladstones LBC, naming the driver and giving your address as a last resort (before proceedings).

Can be a good bet to wait and only do this late because then:

- the named driver, if pursued, can say they were never sent any letters about it so have not had a fair chance to respond

- the keeper, if wrongly still pursued, has a VERY good defence that they have already discharged liability before proceedings, by naming the driver & giving an address for service (end of liability for Dad, but if the court claim arrived in his name he'd still have to be the defendant).

Up to you.

Its a tough call. Part of me wants to stick it out and the other just wants to get rid and save myself the oncoming grief. Either choice leads to a headache anyway, going to sleep on it.

Thanks for this, really appreciate it.

Haj · 27 May 2017 at 4:43PM

Hi guys,

Just to update and to receive some further advice on a THIRD PCN i received in the same car park. (jeez i know i'm not good at this) After paying the first two this time i did appeal (on behalf of my father) and i just received the letter from CPM rejecting my appeal.

The letter states some interesting points about the Parking Eye Vs Beavis case and that this case was found 6-1 in favour of the parking company over the motorist etc, this is worrying especially if i'm looking to 2nd stage appeal?

Also says they are not obliged to send the contract between them and the landowner onto me.

It also says that upon reading the signage I have contactually agreed to pay a parking charge fee if the restrictions were breached. Now do i 2nd stage appeal staying the driver will not be identified and no contract has been made? Is there a template for this 2nd stage appeal?

Also how successful are the appeals against IPC members such as CPM? I have appealed successfully many times to a BPA member but this one seems worrying.

Thanks!

TWO UKCPM PCN's

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