Huge TC overpayment that's wrong

Justwe03 · 9 October 2017 at 9:23PM

Hi there,

Hoping someone can give me some advice as I've gotten myself in such a state I can't think straight.

I had a childcare audit earlier this year, all fine, sent them all the details, receipts, and statements etc... I'd averaged my childcare out over the year @ £77pw. They edited it slightly to say £55 for a period of 8 weeks the £120pw for the rest of the year. Which I think means I actually underestimated my childcare costs slightly?

But they have also sent me a series notification that I owe £16710.49 in overpaid WTC, CTC and CC, £12k of this for 16/17 and just under £5k for this year so they have stopped all of the payments until April to claw some back.

It says that I have only worked 1 hour per week for the last 2 tax years and that I have sent no evidence of my employment.

I am freaking out, to say the least. The main helpline can't speak to me and the direct dial number I was given hasn't worked for about 5 weeks.

I am a single disabled parent and I just don't know what to do.

I lost my son @ 20ish weeks in March 2017, and have been signed off since. I am returning to work tomorrow, after 28 weeks/6 months. I was signed off by the doctor rather than having maternity he was too young and I had no idea I was pregnant when I lost him.

When I was in hospital my previous manager and assistant manager were sacked and a new person took over, when I originally went to discuss going back after a few weeks the new manager refused to have me back or to sack me (Maternity rights etc) So I went through ACAS to try and resolve the issue.

Again the manager refuses to have me back but won't terminate my employment, we never get wage slips or a contract. Never had a p60 or p45 despite asking when this was going on. The paperwork ACAS managed to get had another employees details on rather than mine!

so I called Tax Credits to inform them. As I was working 16 - 18 hours on average my sick notes cover me as working according to the caseworker but she's escalated my claim to someone more senior to sort out.

Anyway, apparently everything is all fine and tax credits keep coming in as if I was still earning, and I can't claim anything else as the tax credits are based on what I was earning so I'm living off those and my small pot of savings.

As it is I am now going back to the same company but a different restaurant tomorrow, temporarily until I start my new job in November.

I sent all my bank statements to show my wages being paid into my account and sent them all the paperwork from ACAS to do with the previous restaurant.

I've always worked the right amount of hours, so this all arriving this morning and I just don't know what to do, the phone number still isn't working, the main phone line can't help me. I have absolutely nothing left and certainly can't magic £17,000 out of anywhere.

Darksparkle · 9 October 2017 at 9:31PM

I’m sorry for your loss.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/tax-credits-technical-manual/tctm02421

An employed person is treated as being in qualifying remunerative work for up to 28 weeks, provided that person normally worked at least 16, 24 or 30 hours a week (whichever applied) immediately before beginning to receive any one of these benefits:

- Statutory Sick Pay
- Short-term Incapacity Benefit at the lower rate
- Income Support on the grounds of incapacity for work
- Employment and Support Allowance
- National Insurance credits on the grounds of incapacity for work or limited capability for work

Did you receive any of those whilst off sick?

Justwe03 · 22 October 2017 at 10:41AM

Hi, sorry it's been so long since I've replied things have gone from bad to worse.

My employer has no record of me on their systems, apart from photo's of myself at work and reviews that mention me by name etc... I have no proof I was there at all, There are at least 100 people employed in the same jobs as me at different venues. And there is now a threatening undercurrent in the communications I've had with the CEO.

I applied and was receiving £15 a week in ESA, I went back to another place from ran by the same Employer for 3 shifts a week or so ago and asked the manager to chase up where my previous p60 was to send to HRMC.

I then got a call from the manager saying I know can't work until I've spoken to the CEO, I emailed as requested. The response was, I've cost him money by speaking to ACAS and there is a nationwide no return policy if you cost him money.

I have no idea what to do, I've sent as much evidence as I can to HMRC. I worked 16 - 18 hours every week. I've never done anything fraudulently in my life.

epitome · 22 October 2017 at 12:25PM

He sent you that reply in email?

I suggest you speak to the C.A.B
Get together all your paperwork that you had, payslips, bankstatements, P60, employer letters etc, and take it with you to C.A.B. and ask if they can refer you to a solicitor or recommend a solicitor for you to go and see.

Did you pay Union subscriptions? If so speak to your Union.

With regards to the Tax Credit Overpayment
I would expect HMRC to have such a thing as Written Statement of Reasons...which you should ask for.

I would phone the main helpline and ask to speak to a manager and ask how you are supposed to phone the direct line when it is always engaged - for 5 weeks...and ask what are this manager is going to do to help you to speak to the right department -Make sure you take the manager's name and office name. If they do not help then ask them to take a complaint from you over the phone naming them in your complaint that they have not offered any way to resolve this problem.

I think you should also say on this thread
What date you last worked on the original work..& if they gave you sick pay.
What date you Claimed ESA from and what has happened to that claim for ESA now?
What date you phoned Tax Credits initially to inform them you had stopped working and were on sick.

One thing I can confirm is that your Working Tax Credit payments will have been deducted out of your ESA. But although WTC is now saying there is an overpayment...ESA will not give you any arrears for the same period.

Justwe03 · 22 October 2017 at 4:00PM

Hi thanks so much for replying, I'll fill in what I can:

Last worked 6th March 2017
Contacted work 8th March said I was in hospital and why.

Signed off for 4 weeks, no sick pay. Contacted work again on numerous occasions and was ignored. Had some complications from surgery and signed off for another 8 weeks.

Went into work, took copies of sicknotes in and letter for manager asking them to contact me. Found out my manager has been fired for scalping our hours to pay his wife a high salary. Which is why our wages were never right always under and all over the place.

I the same shifts every week, 3 evening 5pm till anywhere between 10:30pm and 12:30am depending on if it's the weekend shift.

Went physically into work 3 times in April and sent a letter recorded in early May, on advice from ACAS. No response so they began early resolution. Got a letter back from work in june basically saying nothing but with a SSP1 that had someone else's details on not mine.

Claimed ESA based on contributions according to the award in June after everything finished with ACAS and I got a ET cert, I spoke to a solicitor then but I couldn't afford to pursue it.

Informed tax credits all this back in mid march as they were doing a childcare audit anyway told to leave it with the case worker but as I was working 16hrs+ average they would class me as working for upto 28 weeks.

Stopped the claim for ESA on the 10th October when I returned to work, my last sick note ran out on agreement with my dr on 10th October.

Spoke to my new manager and they said they'd chase it all up for me and find out what's happened. Worked the rest of the week no problems, now being refused my hours and told of this apparent policy.

Letters from HMRC are dated the 2nd and 3rd October but arrived the 8th. I'd already sorted out going back to work at a new restaurant on the 10th with a different manager at this point.

Have already spoken to CAB but they are being very slow on an appointment. New Manager did find out I am not on the system at all, apparently nobody was when I started as it 'wasn't on the books' initially. That's not provable by me I guess but just for context.

We've never had any wage slips or p60's. There's no record on my personal tax account online etc...

I've written all this to HMRC with proof of what they did pay me although it's all wrong. And proof of my previous employment with a letter from them directly confirming my hours, wage and dates I worked for them. As this proves half of 16/17 I was working over 16hours anyway.

I hope that adds a bit clarity to what's gone on.

epm-84 · 22 October 2017 at 4:36PM

Have you tried signing in to your online tax account: https://www.gov.uk/personal-tax-account

That might show information that should be on P60s.

epitome · 22 October 2017 at 4:43PM

Just to re-iterate, There is very little I can help you with, my area of expertise is ESA, If no other replies from this forum, speak to C.A.B and a solicitor. My advice is also to contact your work colleagues who can verify that you all worked together and that you were all working more than 1 hour a week. If you don't know them maybe they are still working there? Did you get paid for the week worked in October?

I think for the purposes of this thread you need to say what date you claimed ESA from.

You said claimed ESA Contributory, but said only paid £15 per week. Working Tax Credits would not have been deducted from ESA C.
ESA C would have paid you £73.10 or £57.90 a week
Therefore you must have claimed ESA IR

*To anyone reading this thread...it illustrates the importance of having a written contract of employment and payslips. This employer appears to be commiting several offences.

Justwe03 · 22 October 2017 at 4:49PM

epm-84 wrote: »

Have you tried signing in to your online tax account: https://www.gov.uk/personal-tax-account

That might show information that should be on P60s.

Yes, this employer isn't on there at all. I also rang HMRC and asked and they have no records from this employer either.

People I work with I've been getting wages slips but they still haven't had P60's from last tax year.

epitome · 22 October 2017 at 5:34PM

Your solicitor will be able to advise, but if you can get an affidavit from your work colleagues, and appeal the HMRC decision...your evidence of criminal activity by your employer should go a long way to winning this case for you.

Justwe03 · 22 October 2017 at 6:02PM

Thank you for all the responses my Dad is trying to get me a solicitor through the fedoration at his work as I have no income at all now.

I'll go to the drop in at CAB tomorrow and see if I can get them to sort out a proper appointment. I'll also check my ESA award as I'm sure it was CB, that's what it says on my original paperwork when they send you the pack when you claim over the phone. Don't want to find myself in bother with anything else

Justwe03 · 2 December 2017 at 10:57PM

Just an update,

Tax credits turned down my reconsideration. Because they reasoned the money I could prove only amounted to an average of 14hrs a week, so they've still classed me as working 1hour per week.

But also completely ignored the other job I had that year that was contracted 18.5 hours a week from 4th April - 30th August.

However, they aren't pursuing me for fraud and have instead stopped all our tax credits for the next 3 years to recoup the supposedly owed money.

I've been to see my MP today and his assistant was well aware of my employer from being on the licensing committee for our council and him turning up playing 'billy big boy' with legal reps from London.

They are going to write a letter but can't promise anything.

I started my new job this week so I'm hoping I can get some legal advice through the employee assist service once I am all set up on the systems.

Huge TC overpayment that's wrong

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