Need advice been dismissed after 33yrs service
Comments
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hi all thank you all for taking the time to respond for clarity I had asked my line manager because of personal situation to start early and finish early, I have been singled out for my union activities, the full time convenor took redundancy and I had to fight for facility time most of my union time was with management HR , i submitted a grievance against my manger that was anti union for harassment and bullying and my rep suggested mediation which I agreed but was suspended before this could be arranged , before I was suspended I seen my doctor I had a break down panic attacks depression due to the pressures of doing to jobs no one complained when I was attending meetings with HR and management , my colleague complained to management that he was struggling to do our work on his own and was told to just get on with it , I did complain about the pressures of my management but fell on death ears , two months after I was suspended I attempted to committed suicide and have been on medication since this day , my union have been a waste of time and I cannot believe it , I put in grievances but I was told that they was to be put in without reasonable delay? And was denied and told to raise them at my disciplinary hearing before the investigation was complete, so therefore biased and judgmental , I replied I have not left my home for 4 months due to my mental break down and it was a reasonable reason for the delay but still rejected , they are hiding behind data protection and will not under any circumstances allow the proof of custom and practice part 2 will follow soon0
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I'm sorry, but custom and practice doesn't cover fraud. I understand how distressing this has been for you and how it has affected you. And you may be correct that the reason for your disciplinary is because of your union activity. But you did what you are accused of. They don't need to hide behind data protection. You have no right to access those records. And they don't change the fact that you are guilty of the offence. If every single person is doing the same thing, it doesn't make you innocent. There is only one defence here - that you didn't do it. So if you started late and finished early, your time sheet will reflect that fact? Allowing a reduction in hours (with a commensurate reduction in pay) is quite acceptable - but your timesheet will reflect that. If it doesn't, then that is fraud. As I said, if you are a union official, you have to be squeaky clean. And you must understand the importance of written records of variations in contractual terms. So do you have records of the agreement to reduce your hours/ pay?Martinosad wrote: »hi all thank you all for taking the time to respond for clarity I had asked my line manager because of personal situation to start early and finish early, I have been singled out for my union activities, the full time convenor took redundancy and I had to fight for facility time most of my union time was with management HR , i submitted a grievance against my manger that was anti union for harassment and bullying and my rep suggested mediation which I agreed but was suspended before this could be arranged , before I was suspended I seen my doctor I had a break down panic attacks depression due to the pressures of doing to jobs no one complained when I was attending meetings with HR and management , my colleague complained to management that he was struggling to do our work on his own and was told to just get on with it , I did complain about the pressures of my management but fell on death ears , two months after I was suspended I attempted to committed suicide and have been on medication since this day , my union have been a waste of time and I cannot believe it , I put in grievances but I was told that they was to be put in without reasonable delay? And was denied and told to raise them at my disciplinary hearing before the investigation was complete, so therefore biased and judgmental , I replied I have not left my home for 4 months due to my mental break down and it was a reasonable reason for the delay but still rejected , they are hiding behind data protection and will not under any circumstances allow the proof of custom and practice part 2 will follow soon0 -
no sorry I wished I had I have known my line manager for 20yrs and he still denies what I asked him and the management knew and accepted the job and finish , what I an trying to gain is the fact I have been singled out for a practice that was acceptable by management and continues to this day, a supervisor had payed 10 of my colleagues 12 hrs pay when she sent them home early, why have you got to be squeaky clean and treated differently for being a union rep when management allows other colleagues to do job and finish? Data protection I have offered acas to look interpedently or remove any information that identify any one, during the investigation I was told all trackers have been checked and no one did job and finish then changed it in the disciplinary hearing to only drivers was checked now HR manger as stated that only one person was checked as a comparable , if there is evidence to prove that colleagues was doing the same and management knew about this can this be withheld? How can I be guilty when I was under the impression I had permission?0
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Martinosad wrote: »I had to fight for facility time
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they are hiding behind data protection and will not under any circumstances allow the proof of custom and practice part 2 will follow soon
Did you claim to have worked hours that you did not in fact work or not...? Presumably the 'facility time' thing meant you were devoting some of your paid hours to something that wasn't what you were paid to be doing (this is a weird concept to most people)... and all this paid time, regular hours or overtime, was pensionable on very generous terms...
At the risk (probably well past!) of sounding like a complete a-hole, when it comes down to it, better stick to technicalities than higher morality. What's normal for union officials like yourself and Sangie is a world away from most people who work in the private sector. I work lots of 'overtime', but paid - ha ha - and pensionable - and 1/49 CARE pensionable - what the f...?0 -
You really are going to have to drop the "Other people are doing it too" routine. Its not a defense.0
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xapprenticex wrote: »You really are going to have to drop the "Other people are doing it too" routine. Its not a defense.
OP was being treated differently to his (ex) colleagues, and feels that was because of his union activity. It's quite possibly true, but proving the link is going to be nigh on impossible.
Have you had any counselling Martin? It's not going to change anything but it may help to talk it through with someone.0 -
OP was being treated differently to his (ex) colleagues, and feels that was because of his union activity. It's quite possibly true, but proving the link is going to be nigh on impossible.
Have you had any counselling Martin? It's not going to change anything but it may help to talk it through with someone.
Yeah thats what im saying, its pointless to go that route. But imo a person working for the union is going to be held to a higher standard naturally, it was silly to be logging hours he was not working.0 -
Martinosad wrote: »no sorry I wished I had I have known my line manager for 20yrs and he still denies what I asked him and the management knew and accepted the job and finish This is not, and has never been, the terms of employment for local authority employees. Local authority employees have fixed hours. Due to changes in employment practices over the years. those hours may have varied slightly. But local authorities do not have task and finish terms, and never have. You are a union official - you deal with peoples terms and conditions all the time. You must have known that. , what I an trying to gain is the fact I have been singled out for a practice that was acceptable by management and continues to this day, No, this is what your are not understanding. You have acted fraudulently. You appear to be admitting that. So there is no "singling out" - the employers defence is that you are the one who has been caught. You are at liberty to provide the employer with the details of people who have done the same thing - and get them sacked too.
supervisor had payed 10 of my colleagues 12 hrs pay when she sent them home early, That is entirely different in law. They were sent home, and in law that means the employer must pay the contracted terms. You were not sent home.why have you got to be squeaky clean and treated differently for being a union rep when management allows other colleagues to do job and finish? You are missing the point. You have to be squeaky clean because you are putting yourself on the line. You give the employer no excuse to discipline you. You gave them that excuse and they went for it. Data protection I have offered acas to look interpedently or remove any information that identify any one, during the investigation I was told all trackers have been checked and no one did job and finish then changed it in the disciplinary hearing to only drivers was checked now HR manger as stated that only one person was checked as a comparable , if there is evidence to prove that colleagues was doing the same and management knew about this can this be withheld?You aren't listening. All that proving that would do is get everyonesacked. You have committed fraud. Your argument is that since other people have committed theft, you must be allowed to as well. That argument simply isn't valid and will never convince a tribunal. How can I be guilty when I was under the impression I had permission? Sorry to be harsh, but what kind of union official are you? "Under the impression" isn't a defence. If one agrees new terms of work they are put in writing. That is union training 101 - get everything in a written record that is agreed.
It's very simple - you did not work the hours that you put on your timesheet. That is fraud. Under no circumstances, unless your manager sends you home, do you get paid for hours that you do not work. What you think of as a right is not what is written in your terms and conditions. They very clearly lay out the terms of your employment and the hours that you must work. Your terms also include full details of how to apply for flexible working and reduced hours if you wish to do that. You are no different from any other council worker - your contract specifies a set number of hours, a process by which you must account for them, and a clear process for varying those hours. You say that you are being singled out - but you are actually singling yourself out by saying that you should be paid in full for working less than full time, when that is not a term of employment. So if you prove that 500 other people are doing the same as you, then all that does is lead to 501 people getting dismissed. Your defence is not a defence.0 -
Did you claim to have worked hours that you did not in fact work or not...? Presumably the 'facility time' thing meant you were devoting some of your paid hours to something that wasn't what you were paid to be doing (this is a weird concept to most people)... and all this paid time, regular hours or overtime, was pensionable on very generous terms...
At the risk (probably well past!) of sounding like a complete a-hole, when it comes down to it, better stick to technicalities than higher morality. What's normal for union officials like yourself and Sangie is a world away from most people who work in the private sector. I work lots of 'overtime', but paid - ha ha - and pensionable - and 1/49 CARE pensionable - what the f...?[/QUOTE]
You have absolutely no idea what is "normal" for me. But it includes lots of overtime, which is not paid and does not count towards any pension. And many union officials in the private sector have facility time - it's the law, not some public sector thing! Bashing public sector employees for their so-called better terms may be fun, but repeated studies evidence that this is far from true. Some terms may be better. Others most certainly are not. Any time you want a taste of "my world" feel free to stand for election. There's always plenty of opportunities to put your neck on the line for the sake of a bunch of other people who won't ever stand up for you. But who will certainly blame you for the fact that you can't get them what they want because they will not get off their backsides and fight for whatever it is.0 -
right all firstly I am having counselling, so a member of management can commit fraud? When actually colleagues worked 6hrs and was told to book 12hrs? management know and allowed this practice and I was given permission(wish I had it written) I did not wilfully commit fraud, management have said there was a supervisor on duty on Saturdays I never seen anyone and there are trackers on the vans ,so only a fool would do this without permission I can prove that I only done job and finish for 4 months the rest of the last 25yrs was worked up to time my tracker information proves that ,management was requesting me to meetings in my working day so how can that be misuse of time? I posted on here not to be treated as a fool but to get some advice, my employer has now said that they are withholding 4 months worth of annual leave , I understand what you are all saying but 33yrs of unblemished record , its obviously that my union duties and they wanted me out ,3 days hearing and mostly discussed my union role and how my section management was afraid of me not as an employee but as a union official? I have attended meetings with the chief exe(on paid time outside my facility time) and he gave me a good character reference and the leader of the council did? I have had a very positive relationship with all management levels on all sections but mine? I did not abuse my position as a union rep in all the 25yrs I did it ? no one from any management complain I was carrying out union duties outside my facility time? my manager complain to our chief officer she said in her statement and he did nothing not even mentioned it to me? When I walk in the office all I had was look out here's trouble coming or look out hears union coming and silence when I walk in all I ever did was to try and help my colleagues, if my supervisor said to only book the time worked I would have but he just ok? I have also been accused of personal calls on the works phone I was given permission for union duties and the phone was provided by the union and was a council sim card, making calls on the weekend, I replied if it was not acceptable to carry out union work on weekends then why not tell me?i was a marked man0
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