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  • FIRST POST
    • Gavin78
    • By Gavin78 28th Jul 17, 12:44 AM
    • 183Posts
    • 49Thanks
    Gavin78
    CSA help
    • #1
    • 28th Jul 17, 12:44 AM
    CSA help 28th Jul 17 at 12:44 AM
    I've posted this on another forum and been given some advice to contact them with a SAR request. I'm posting here looking to see if there is any alternative help/advice.

    I took myself to CSA as my ex was being funny with payments, in 2007 I started working I informed CSA who calculated my payments at £30 a week from a deducations of earning order.

    2007 I also started paying another debt back for £20 a month through my wage about the same time CSA were taking the money as well.

    2013 I moved into a new house I informed CSA

    2017 April wages updated their systems with new software and wage slips were a little different inc the £20 debt which now said £20 court order. Did pay much notice too it and went on holiday for a week just after getting the wage slip.

    2017 April come back from holiday see a letter waiting for me from CSA to say it was changing to CMS in september.

    Found it a little confusing so rang payroll to enquire if they new anything about it and they didn't as yet. I asked about the £20 debt as to how much was left to pay and it was at that point she said what debt the £20 is CSA payments.

    I said well it should be £30 a week and I assumed it came off my wage before I got paid. So she said they can only pay what they have been asked to pay and £20 a month was the order.

    I nearly died at that point 10 years have passed. She couldn't offer anymore advice other than to contact CSA themselves.

    I'm scared to contact them I've estimated the debt to be about 18k-21k.

    My wife lost her job last year hasn't got back in work yet and as a result put us 22k in debt which I pay back through stepchange debt charity at £269 a month

    I get 1,250-£1300 a month. I've worked out that just on my wage there is about £140 a month left to buy food and that is for 3 adults and a 3 year old my stepson is 23 but still at home and Uni.

    WTF am I going to do about this mess. I'm in a council house so wont lose the house but I could lose everything we own. we have a car if we lose that I can't even get my daughter (who I have with my now wife) to nursery which free's my wife up to work hopefully (once schools open again september and jobs come back up)

    I don't understand why CSA haven't contacted me when the payments were wrong (or my ex) who I haven't spoken to for since 2003

    It's so bad at the min all the debts are in my name inc CSA 40k+ that ending it all has been floating in my mind there wont be any burden on the rest of the family it will all die with me.
Page 1
    • Sambella
    • By Sambella 28th Jul 17, 12:30 PM
    • 319 Posts
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    Sambella
    • #2
    • 28th Jul 17, 12:30 PM
    • #2
    • 28th Jul 17, 12:30 PM
    This could well be an error on the part of CSA/CMS so unless and until they get in contact try not to worry.

    They send the instruction to your employer to deduct xx amount of money and if they give them the wrong figure it is hardly your fault.
    • Gavin78
    • By Gavin78 29th Jul 17, 11:07 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    Gavin78
    • #3
    • 29th Jul 17, 11:07 PM
    • #3
    • 29th Jul 17, 11:07 PM
    Thank you for getting back to me, I think you might be right. I have the evidence where they wrote to me to say it was £30 and the details of where I work etc

    I was thinking if I contacted them it might only make the situation worse especially with it changing over to CMS in September.
    • HoneyNutLoop
    • By HoneyNutLoop 30th Jul 17, 7:46 AM
    • 472 Posts
    • 375 Thanks
    HoneyNutLoop
    • #4
    • 30th Jul 17, 7:46 AM
    • #4
    • 30th Jul 17, 7:46 AM
    As part of your CSA case closing, they will check to see if you owe any arrears and write to you then about them, if there are any.

    The only decision you have now is do you tackle it now or wait til then? I think submitting a SAR now is an excellent idea, as it can take them 40 days to send it. You don't have to say why you're asking for the SAR.

    You say in 2007 they wrote to you to say they would collect £30 a week by DEO and then later the same year the £20 a month began for your other (non-CSA?) debt? Did the £30 a week deductions ever begin? I.e. at one point you were paying £120+ish a month and the £20 a month, or have you only ever had the £20 a month taken since 2007?
    I often use a tablet to post, so sometimes my posts will have random letters inserted, or entirely the wrong word if autocorrect is trying to wind me up. Hopefully you'll still know what I mean.
    • Gavin78
    • By Gavin78 30th Jul 17, 10:48 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    Gavin78
    • #5
    • 30th Jul 17, 10:48 PM
    • #5
    • 30th Jul 17, 10:48 PM
    The £20 payment came off my wage as I got the letter from CSA to say £30 a week was coming off my wage.

    I assumed CSA payments were coming off my wage before I got paid so never thought anything about it. I hadn't been working long about 3 months so my wage was different for the first year as I was paying less tax with being unemployed the previous year

    1 year into my job I saw an employee who's wage was higher than mine but I had been there longer than him so moved up the payment ladder. I figured the difference was my CSA payments as there was about the same in difference what they said they would be taking.

    After all this it got me thinking that I had heard him moaning the other year about having to pay a pension. I can only assume now this was the difference in our wages at the time I never gave it a thought back then.

    So after calling wages it now appears the debt I was supposed to be paying off never happened and they don't know anything about that and the £20 a month that has been coming off my wage since 2007 has been CSA.

    I've not heard anything from CSA to say the payments were wrong 2007-2013 I moved house informed them of a change of address heard nothing again until this year when I got a letter telling me it was changing to CMS

    What I don't understand is why have CSA never contacted me about this and looking at other threads across the internet I'm supposed to get statements from them and they are supposed to keep incontact with me to some extent but I've heard nothing
    Last edited by Gavin78; 30-07-2017 at 10:52 PM.
    • HoneyNutLoop
    • By HoneyNutLoop 31st Jul 17, 7:34 AM
    • 472 Posts
    • 375 Thanks
    HoneyNutLoop
    • #6
    • 31st Jul 17, 7:34 AM
    • #6
    • 31st Jul 17, 7:34 AM
    No one here can tell you why they haven't got in touch with you before. Only they (may) be able to tell you that.

    If they were taking deductions from your pay, this would have been shown on your payslip, in the same way that tax and national insurance deductions are itemised so you can see what the deduction is for and how much it is. Have you not been receiving payslips from your employer?

    I would say ask for the SAR. You'll then know what attempts, if any, they made to contact you and have a better idea of the position of your case.
    I often use a tablet to post, so sometimes my posts will have random letters inserted, or entirely the wrong word if autocorrect is trying to wind me up. Hopefully you'll still know what I mean.
    • Gavin78
    • By Gavin78 31st Jul 17, 8:36 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    Gavin78
    • #7
    • 31st Jul 17, 8:36 PM
    • #7
    • 31st Jul 17, 8:36 PM
    I've had pay slips every month, like I said £20 was showing as coming off which I assumed was the debt I was paying. The CSA I thought was getting taken off my wage before I got paid. I never even thought about it showing on my wage slip as a deducation.

    Stupid is as stupid does I guess. I was only just saying to my wife in January that there will only be about another 3 years to pay and she will be 19 then.

    I wish I had looked into this sooner.

    I guess until contact is made with them I'll not know what has been going on.

    Thanks for the advice though. It's at least pointed me in the right direction. Once I know more I'll update this thread
    • HoneyNutLoop
    • By HoneyNutLoop 1st Aug 17, 7:22 AM
    • 472 Posts
    • 375 Thanks
    HoneyNutLoop
    • #8
    • 1st Aug 17, 7:22 AM
    • #8
    • 1st Aug 17, 7:22 AM
    The CSA I thought was getting taken off my wage before I got paid. I never even thought about it showing on my wage slip as a deducation.
    On a different note - this statement suggests you don't know how much you're meant to get paid gross, which is a little worrying on the financial front. Are you salaried? Or are you paid hourly/piece work? How did/do you know each month if you've been paid everything you're owed?
    I often use a tablet to post, so sometimes my posts will have random letters inserted, or entirely the wrong word if autocorrect is trying to wind me up. Hopefully you'll still know what I mean.
    • Gavin78
    • By Gavin78 1st Aug 17, 8:03 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    Gavin78
    • #9
    • 1st Aug 17, 8:03 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Aug 17, 8:03 PM
    I get a wage every month that varied £100 +/-

    Assuming that about £140/£150 a month was coming off my wage I would get what was left which left me with about £1250 a month give and take.

    I've never actually sat down until all this happened and broke my wage down bit by bit.

    but until I contact CSA I don't really know why £20 was all they were taking when the court order stated £30 a week.

    I should have checked at the time £20 was coming off. In any event it's still not my fault it's CSA's and in all this time they have never followed it up. As far as things go they messed up but I have to pay the price for it.

    I've no doubt now after spending hours reading on the internet from similar stories that I'm going to be financially screwed by them.

    My only case I have really is why did they take £20 only and why didn't they follow it up and why haven't they made any contact in all these years
    • HoneyNutLoop
    • By HoneyNutLoop 1st Aug 17, 8:17 PM
    • 472 Posts
    • 375 Thanks
    HoneyNutLoop
    You mean your gross pay varied +/- £100 or your net pay? I only ask because if you thought you were meant to be getting paid an extra £120 all these years from your employer, what happened to that money? Have you been underpaid by your employer? Or did you think your wage was higher than it is?

    It sounded in earlier posts like you've been planning that your income will be going up in the next few years when your maintenance ends, which implies you think your pay is meant to be higher than it is, given what you've since realised...

    In terms of the CSA, if you're hoping they will say you don't have to pay arrears (if any are owed) because they didn't contact you about the short payments, I think you will be disappointed. All the SAR will do is arm you with information in advance about what did and did not happen on your case and how things currently stand.
    I often use a tablet to post, so sometimes my posts will have random letters inserted, or entirely the wrong word if autocorrect is trying to wind me up. Hopefully you'll still know what I mean.
    • Gavin78
    • By Gavin78 1st Aug 17, 9:01 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    Gavin78
    My wage started around 15k rising to 18k over the 10 year period I just assumed CSA would rise with it as I knew it was roughly 15% of my wage. I can't remember what my starting wage was about £980 off the top of my head.

    I never thought I was under paid I assumed it was lower than another work mates because of CSA payment coming off my wage. I've just been stupid all these years assuming it was coming off before I got paid.

    I now know that the £20 a month showing on my wage slip was infact CSA down as court order which I took into account that it was a debt I Thought I was paying off which never actually happened.

    So while I don't think they would wipe the debt I think at this stage I want to possibly lesson the impact 60% of my wage would just cover rent and council tax I wouldn't be able to pay any other bills or buy any food.

    I don't know how flexable CSA are it's not like I have been hiding from them I even wrote to them 6 years later to inform them of a change of address.

    I'm hoping they will take the 15% I should be paying plus and additional 5% for debt till my wife gets back in work or I don't know what I will do probably lose our home.

    I'm not sure what they do when you have a small child to support on 1 wage.
    • Rejast
    • By Rejast 1st Aug 17, 10:21 PM
    • 43 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    Rejast
    Just a question as you haven't explained when you and your wife moved in together.

    Did you tell them that you had children in your household? They should have taken the stepson into account from the time you and your wife moved in together if child benefit was still being paid for him, if you notified them of the birth of your 3 yr old then they should have been taken into account too.

    To be honest from experience, when looking into paying back any debt owed they will not be taking into consideration that your wife is not working, that you have a young child (other than giving the standard reduction in assessment), or that you are supporting a child through uni (at all)

    I back up what others say that you should ask for a sar to make sure that any changes you have notified them of have been acted upon correctly and to have any reductions (such as having a 3 yr old) that may have been missed (rightly or wrongly) applied asap to minimise the impact on any debt you may have going forward. I'm not sure how the current change of circumstances are being applied but if it is a case of from when they are notified the quicker they are told the quicker your assessment will reduce.

    With regards to Sambella's comment, unfortunately whether the Deduction Order was issued rightly or wrongly you were notified of the correct assessment amount and the standard response would be that if you saw this was not being taken then it is your responsibility to make sure it is paid.
    • Gavin78
    • By Gavin78 1st Aug 17, 11:02 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    Gavin78
    Just a question as you haven't explained when you and your wife moved in together.

    Did you tell them that you had children in your household? They should have taken the stepson into account from the time you and your wife moved in together if child benefit was still being paid for him, if you notified them of the birth of your 3 yr old then they should have been taken into account too.

    To be honest from experience, when looking into paying back any debt owed they will not be taking into consideration that your wife is not working, that you have a young child (other than giving the standard reduction in assessment), or that you are supporting a child through uni (at all)

    I back up what others say that you should ask for a sar to make sure that any changes you have notified them of have been acted upon correctly and to have any reductions (such as having a 3 yr old) that may have been missed (rightly or wrongly) applied asap to minimise the impact on any debt you may have going forward. I'm not sure how the current change of circumstances are being applied but if it is a case of from when they are notified the quicker they are told the quicker your assessment will reduce.

    With regards to Sambella's comment, unfortunately whether the Deduction Order was issued rightly or wrongly you were notified of the correct assessment amount and the standard response would be that if you saw this was not being taken then it is your responsibility to make sure it is paid.
    Originally posted by Rejast

    You make sense I've spoke to the wife..I can't get any proof of the debt it was with my ex at our then house, I moved out argued over the debt with company, baliffs eventually came out to my mums (June 2007) they couldn't take anything but I offered them a break down of income and an offer of £20 a month to start with. they said they would take it back but it's upto the court.

    Moved in not long after with wife 2007 fell out with my mum about then and not spoke for 10 years infact she's moved 4 times since then December £20 started coming off my wage about the same time CSA wrote to me to say £30 a week was coming out.

    long story short I agree it sounds like a load of crap I should have chased it up right away and I didn't. I do have proof of the debt but nothing anything was agreed on if there was anything it lies with my mum and well I'll never see that. but I don't think there was now anyway as my work didn't have a clue about any debt paid back.

    So rather than complicate things with CSA I will just tell them I thought a debt was being paid back turns it wasn it was CSA I never followed it up and here we are.

    I will do a SAR as advised.

    I moved in with wife 2007 CSA payments start out of wage, (2013) daughter was born other than CSA writing to me in 2007 to say it was coming out of my wage. that was the last communication I had with them.

    Should I have let them know I had stepkids and another daughter in another relationship?

    Another thing I've looked around the net at other CSA problems. Should I have been getting yearly statements from them? the only other contact I had with them was in 2013 when we moved house and I notified them of a change of address. Again I never heard anything more from them until this year when they wrote to me saying CMS was taking over.

    I know that doesn't matter vs the arrears but I think it should to some extent. even when my wage has gone up over the years the £20 has stayed the same, So I am confused until I get the SAR break down why this has never changed.

    Thank you for the advise though.
    Last edited by Gavin78; 01-08-2017 at 11:04 PM.
    • Rejast
    • By Rejast 1st Aug 17, 11:53 PM
    • 43 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    Rejast
    Ok, if I understand correctly the £20 is debt which they took bailiff action to recover. All that means is that the period of debt which the bailiffs were tasked with collecting is being paid. This would not have been revisited for as long as you maintained your agreed payments, especially if the bailiffs ascertained you had no goods to seize.

    In the background the regular ongoing payments are not being collected and accruing.

    You should have told them when you moved in with your wife as your ongoing assessment would have been reduced due to your stepson living with you for as long as child benefit was being paid for him. It would have then increased again when child benefit stopped only to decrease again when your 3 yr old arrived.

    With regards to the yearly statements, I know that officially you should get them along with yearly payment schedules, however, many people don't.

    You are more than welcome and I hope that you are able to get this sorted quickly
    • Sambella
    • By Sambella 3rd Aug 17, 12:10 PM
    • 319 Posts
    • 301 Thanks
    Sambella
    Rejast does make a good point about my previous comment.

    You have to keep on top of them as much as they keep on top of you.
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 3rd Aug 17, 1:58 PM
    • 7,390 Posts
    • 5,328 Thanks
    pmduk
    Once they issue a new DEO they (the CSA) are supposed to double check that the employer has enacted it and the payments have started to flow in in a timely manner at the correct rate. I suispect that there has been another change in caseworker, probably because of the huge turnover of staff and the case got lost at that point.
    • Gavin78
    • By Gavin78 5th Aug 17, 2:23 AM
    • 183 Posts
    • 49 Thanks
    Gavin78
    Once they issue a new DEO they (the CSA) are supposed to double check that the employer has enacted it and the payments have started to flow in in a timely manner at the correct rate. I suispect that there has been another change in caseworker, probably because of the huge turnover of staff and the case got lost at that point.
    Originally posted by pmduk
    It's my own fault to be honest I should have double checked.

    I've been thinking for days now how it got mixed up and I remember the conversation I had with the wages dept back then. I noticed the £20 had come off my wage and I had the CSA letter turn up about a week later to say it was coming out of my wage.

    I called them up and asked about the £20 debt and then asked them about the CSA and they said "yeah it's gone through and it's coming off"

    Hence the reason I took it that it was already coming off my wage before I got paid and the £20 was debt.

    Skipping 10 years later I now know what has happened. Seems there was some confusion on the phone over what was debt and what was CSA.

    I phoned the courts last week as well to see if they could trace what happened to the incomings and outgoing forms I gave to the bailiff and 3 of my wage slips. But they said they don't have any record and they don't understand why the bailiff said what he did as they wouldn't have dealt with it like that.

    The difference at the time when I spoke to a member of staff about his wage higher than mine was he wasn't paying a pension or Union fees. which rounded it up to about what I would have been paying CSA which is why I assumed it was coming off my wage before I got paid.

    I've never actually sat down and worked my wage out and just gone all these years assuming I was paying it.

    Stupid is as stupid does. I'm not even sure why CSA have never contacted me in 10 years even after telling them I changed address didn't prompt them to check my account.

    I've not had any contact at all from them. other than the £30 a week DEO letter from them. then to inform me CMS was taking over in September.

    I had a bad split with my ex 3 years fighting in the courts for contact to my daughter and I lost contact in the end. but I felt I couldnt move on even after splitting it felt like my ex was still in my life. when CSA said it was taking it out of my wage it felt like a relief that I could move on.

    So I forgot about it and carried on. but you are right I should have kept my eye on the ball.

    While I am not trying to get out of paying, surley someone needs to be held to account on their end for this? wrong payment amount and no follow-ups in 10 years. I'm not sure why my ex hasn't chased it up either.

    Once I know more I'll post back. thanks
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