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  • FIRST POST
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 6th Jan 11, 7:18 PM
    • 1,251Posts
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    lovesgshp
    Ground Source Heat Pumps
    • #1
    • 6th Jan 11, 7:18 PM
    Ground Source Heat Pumps 6th Jan 11 at 7:18 PM
    If anyone wants info on these, then please let me know, as have had one for over 5 years.
Page 1
    • w50nky
    • By w50nky 6th Jan 11, 7:23 PM
    • 409 Posts
    • 233 Thanks
    w50nky
    • #2
    • 6th Jan 11, 7:23 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Jan 11, 7:23 PM
    Its always good to have input by people who have had real world experience of these systems. It will no doubt be of benefit if you could give details/costs and your views of your system.

    Thank in advance!
    • Rolandtheroadie
    • By Rolandtheroadie 6th Jan 11, 7:51 PM
    • 4,729 Posts
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    Rolandtheroadie
    • #3
    • 6th Jan 11, 7:51 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Jan 11, 7:51 PM
    Looked at these a couple of days ago. The site I looked at said they would not be very/as effective in an older property (draughty with poor insulation) and better suited to a modern home that meets current standards for draughtproofing and insulation.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 6th Jan 11, 8:29 PM
    • 1,251 Posts
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    lovesgshp
    • #4
    • 6th Jan 11, 8:29 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Jan 11, 8:29 PM
    Okay, I live in Italy, in a mid 18th Century stone house at 450 mtrs altitude, close to a mountain range. Roof is insulated, double glazing and underloor heating (No wall insulation). Floor area heated 120 sq mtrs @ 19C 24/7. Hot water 48C 24/7 with regular boost to clear bacteria risk.
    GSHP: IVT Greenline HT+, 11Kw output inclusive of DHW cylinder. Cost installed here circa Euro 14K plus excavations for ground loops. You would probably be looking at lower cost in the UK.
    Electricity here is more expensive, so if someone can give me the cost per unit in the UK, I can give an idea of the rough cost based on pump running hours.
    I have 5 other people install the same system and all are really pleased, as no maintenance ( apart from clean 2 filters, ( which takes about 15-30 mins ).
    Ask away if you need more info
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 8th Jan 11, 3:02 PM
    • 1,251 Posts
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    lovesgshp
    • #5
    • 8th Jan 11, 3:02 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Jan 11, 3:02 PM
    Heat pump running hours for Nov - Dec: 198 (8/11-6/12)
    Dec - Jan: 321 (6/12-03/01)
    Multiply the figures above by 2.1 ( the kw the pump uses ) then by your unit kw cost for electricity, to give an estimate of the running cost.
    We have not had as much snow as yourselves, but have still gone to -10 at night
  • dod309
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 11, 10:10 AM
    • #6
    • 9th Jan 11, 10:10 AM
    If anyone wants info on these, then please let me know, as have had one for over 5 years.
    Originally posted by Geotherm

    Hi, what is your general opinion on the ground source heat pump? would it work efficiently with underfloor heating? And do you know rough costs of replacing an oil boiler with ground source heat pump? Thanks
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 9th Jan 11, 10:52 AM
    • 1,251 Posts
    • 702 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 11, 10:52 AM
    • #7
    • 9th Jan 11, 10:52 AM
    My opinion is that it is the best form of heating, but then I am biased having spent the last 5 years with one. Underfloor heating is ideal for them, as you use low heat curves (usually max 35-38C).
    As regard to cost, I would suggest that you try to get a quote from one of the specialist UK suppliers, as we only deal with Italy, where costs are much higher than UK.
    If you let me know the approximate floor area of the house and insulation level, then I may be able to give you an idea of the pump size to look for.
    Remember you need a good size ground area if you go for the normal ground loops, otherwise there are compact collectors which only require about 40sq mtrs area. Boreholes are the most expensive.
    Try this company for a quote: iceenergy. I cannot post the link as a new user, but a google search will bring them up
    • Rolandtheroadie
    • By Rolandtheroadie 9th Jan 11, 1:37 PM
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    Rolandtheroadie
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 11, 1:37 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Jan 11, 1:37 PM
    Geotherm, keep within the forum rules, I think it's safe to say we all appreciate any info you have, i.e running costs, COP's, sizing methods, cost of installation etc.
    Thanks
    Originally posted by albyota
    Can a system in Italy really be comparable to a system in the UK?
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 9th Jan 11, 2:01 PM
    • 1,251 Posts
    • 702 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 11, 2:01 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Jan 11, 2:01 PM
    There is no real difference. Winter temps where we are in central Italy close to the Sibillini mountains get low in the winter, albeit not as bad as in the UK this year. The pump we have is designed to work down to -35C. Last year in Jan-Feb (our coldest months I was getting -1 to -2C feeding back into the ground loop ). House temp still stayed at its set temp of 19C and if I remember correctly, the 3Kw immersion only kicked in for about 2 hours overall when we had a really cold spike overnight. ( It will not switch on unless the pump compressor has had to work for over an hour ). In fact over 5 years, the immersion has only run for 24 hours in total, which is mainly to sanitise the DHW against bacteria.
    • Rolandtheroadie
    • By Rolandtheroadie 9th Jan 11, 2:13 PM
    • 4,729 Posts
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    Rolandtheroadie
    http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Ground-source-heat-pumps
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 9th Jan 11, 3:54 PM
    • 1,251 Posts
    • 702 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Thanks Scotsman. I have read with interest the EST report and it does throw up a lot of questions. We are more tightly monitored here for grants etc. To get a tax reduction, you are required to state that the heat pump will give over 20% savings at least over a conventional system. With that you can recover up to 55% of all costs involved with the installation, even if this means having double glazing installed. All houses have to have a energy certificate to state the heating requirement ( thermal performance ).
    Energy costs here are very high and based on consumption, low to 1440Kw p.a, then to 2400, next to 4400Kw and then over that. We run from 11 cents Kw to 24 plus tax @ 10%. The house here uses in total circa 10k per year, although the pump only uses 1/3 of that consumption.
    I have one client who was using Euro 6000 in gpl per year, but this is eliminated and the GSHP is costing him between 1500-2000 Euro.
    • welda
    • By welda 9th Jan 11, 6:12 PM
    • 580 Posts
    • 270 Thanks
    welda
    There is no real difference. Winter temps where we are in central Italy close to the Sibillini mountains get low in the winter, albeit not as bad as in the UK this year.
    Originally posted by Geotherm
    Geotherm, I'm no geologist, but to say "there is no real difference" I would say is not factual, geology between the two I would say is great, Italy is famous from north to south for it old Roman Spa towns, Acqui Terme near Turin in the north is one that comes to mind, there is also still volcanic activity at various parts too.

    Which in effect, is of great benefit if you have GSHP and residing in Italy, where as, Romans gave up searching for Spa's, certainly in Scotland, they build a big wall instead to keep the cold and rain in!!

    Same goes for volcanic activity, the first and last time I felt the ground shake here, I think I was 15 years old

    Last edited by welda; 09-01-2011 at 6:15 PM.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 9th Jan 11, 9:38 PM
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    lovesgshp
    Welda.
    There is no major difference in the ground temperature at 1.5 mtrs depth whether you live in the north of England or the north of Italy. We have no volcanos in this area, but do get seismic activity where the walls actually wobble like jelly, but something you get used to after the first couple of times.
    Please check actual facts, as we do not all live on volcanos here.
    • welda
    • By welda 9th Jan 11, 9:53 PM
    • 580 Posts
    • 270 Thanks
    welda
    Welda.
    There is no major difference in the ground temperature at 1.5 mtrs depth whether you live in the north of England or the north of Italy. We have no volcanos in this area, but do get seismic activity where the walls actually wobble like jelly, but something you get used to after the first couple of times.
    Please check actual facts, as we do not all live on volcanos here.
    Originally posted by Geotherm
    Geotherm, it was a genuine pertinent question, plus I never said all in Italy live on volcanos, certainly no volcano's live or dud, bar a hot thermal spa where my sis has a 2nd home with her hubby outside Acqui Terme.

    As I stated at start of my post, I am no geologist, however that said, surely there are parts of the world where temperatures vary at 1.5 metre, more so in areas if we can call them "hot spots" such as Acqui Terme for example, where geothermal activity around this old spa town has been studied for decades?

    Last edited by welda; 09-01-2011 at 10:09 PM. Reason: added info.
    • globalds
    • By globalds 9th Jan 11, 10:09 PM
    • 8,905 Posts
    • 16,712 Thanks
    globalds
    Geotherm keep posting it is interesting.

    Do ground source heating systems produce much noise ?

    If I was going for it I would have to try the borehole method. I just think it would be far too expensive.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 9th Jan 11, 10:11 PM
    • 1,251 Posts
    • 702 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Ok Welda. I was just referring to European areas. There are of course variations e.g. Lanzarote where the volcanic activity heats the ground in certain areas. We just have to take an average and work from that, unless there is more specific area data.
    • lovesgshp
    • By lovesgshp 9th Jan 11, 10:18 PM
    • 1,251 Posts
    • 702 Thanks
    lovesgshp
    Globalds. Think of the noise a refrigerator makes and that is close to a heat pump. I would try to go for a compact collector system against a borehole.
    • welda
    • By welda 9th Jan 11, 10:24 PM
    • 580 Posts
    • 270 Thanks
    welda
    Ok Welda. I was just referring to European areas. There are of course variations e.g. Lanzarote where the volcanic activity heats the ground in certain areas. We just have to take an average and work from that, unless there is more specific area data.
    Originally posted by Geotherm
    Thanks for prompt reply Geotherm, I was curious if perhaps your figures were parhaps based on you being in a "hot spot" area of Italy?

    I just replied to another post concerning ASHP, where I attended a seminar, basically was run by sales people, my many questions were never answered, I left a sceptic on certain areas of renewables, based purely on "spin" replies. Plus I was not alone being left a sceptic, hopefully you can offer more technical, specific data?

    • thechippy
    • By thechippy 9th Jan 11, 10:40 PM
    • 1,919 Posts
    • 2,480 Thanks
    thechippy
    There is a major factor to consider with gshp's....

    They are ok at first, as the surrounding temp is more stable in the borehole or ground loop than an ashp.

    However, over a period of years, the temp around the borehole / loop gradually declines and the environment is unable to replace the latent heat at the same rate as it's extracted. This means that the efficiency of the system will gradually decline. This can and DOES happen, but it can be several years before it's noticed.
    Happiness, is a Kebab called Doner.....
    • welda
    • By welda 9th Jan 11, 10:45 PM
    • 580 Posts
    • 270 Thanks
    welda
    Spot on Chippy, system basically sucks out more heat energy that can be replaced by normal solar activity. Bore hole and surrounding area is froze!!

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