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  • FIRST POST
    • kmb500
    • By kmb500 10th Aug 17, 12:17 PM
    • 390Posts
    • 106Thanks
    kmb500
    is it worth joining a union?
    • #1
    • 10th Aug 17, 12:17 PM
    is it worth joining a union? 10th Aug 17 at 12:17 PM
    Hi,


    I have never cared for unions and what they do but I am worried about losing my job due to ill health and am wondering if a union can help me? like Unison (I work for local govt). The employer has to follow the sickness absence policy procedure that they have set out but some of the interpretation is at their discretion, I wonder if it's worth joining the union and they could have someone defend me? would it actually make a difference to the outcome of any decision my employer makes? I don't know.


    thanks for any advice
Page 7
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 13th Aug 17, 3:22 PM
    • 448 Posts
    • 364 Thanks
    scd3scd4
    What has that got to do with anything?

    Because X does a good thing they cant do a bad thing?

    Because X did a good thing you should support them not matter what?
    Originally posted by john22
    No idea what you think you are saying.

    I used the example to prove that sometimes when they say something its wrong or they are lying.

    Hope you understand now.
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 13-08-2017 at 3:24 PM.
    • Stylehutz
    • By Stylehutz 13th Aug 17, 3:25 PM
    • 245 Posts
    • 198 Thanks
    Stylehutz
    Tell you what, in a company which doesnt have 100 per cent Union membership, let the non Union members sign a declaration that they wont get the same rights and benefits as the paid up Union members. For example, if management gives all workers a 1per cent pay increase and its then negotiated to a 3 per cent increase with 2 extra days holiday a year and compassionate leave. The not Union members can have their 1 per cent and 2 less days holiday and no compassionate leave.

    All sorted
    • MatthewAinsworth
    • By MatthewAinsworth 13th Aug 17, 3:39 PM
    • 2,840 Posts
    • 1,136 Thanks
    MatthewAinsworth
    Scd3 - you think supply side economics is rubbish? And the tax implications of wage rises and the effect on inflation is rubbish?

    Don't forget, pensions are investments, everybody's a shareholder

    If you feel like companies are ripping people off, encourage people to buy shares in them
    • john22
    • By john22 13th Aug 17, 3:41 PM
    • 186 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    john22
    No idea what you think you are saying.

    I used the example to prove that sometimes when they say something its wrong or they are lying.

    Hope you understand now.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    I understood best what i could with your vague reply. I was pointing that a well unionised workforce can sometimes be a plus or a minus.

    you started that post with "they all said the same" which implies people who are not part of a union?

    But I'm guessing you will just boil down my opinion or understanding to "rubbish" and surround yourself with men sticking together whatever the hell that means!
    • bugslet
    • By bugslet 13th Aug 17, 3:51 PM
    • 5,544 Posts
    • 27,432 Thanks
    bugslet
    The you negotiated. Thats what a reps does. If you are fair then there really is no issue but your example is you. Of course the better the company, the less work a union has. Surely you understand the majority of places don't work like you described.

    You gave the impression you say x and its x. I explained where I work in a large company you would get no one working or you would get a few, because there is always them. But not enough to do the job.

    I was off sick a while back.....3 months full pay and no one said a word other than welcome back. You think we now have that in a contract other than because of decent reps/ Union backing and a decent open minded company?

    Some of the lads on older contracts can have a year full pay as long as they provide Drs notes??..........is that what you pay?
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    I still wouldn't describe it as negotiation. It was something we hadn't considered. We considered it, came up with the pay structure the lads liked, which as ex drivers we tend to intuitively know anyway, and that was that. I am very polite and will discuss things, but I know that the things I come up with are better than they can get elsewhere. Which is why my staff stay and stay. I literally can't remember the last driver that voluntarily left for reasons other than retirement or I'll health. And trust me, drivers can move around!

    SSP and there is no way I'm moving on that. If I'm sick I get SSP, I'm dry fair like that and no I don't earn vastly more than my staff. The last few years I've had a small bonus so that I top the highest paid driver by a few hundred quid. One of my customers was a government agency and my current main customer is a big blue chip, the stuff their staff get away with is shocking as regards sickness absence. Much to the annoyance of their non sick pay abusing colleagues. on years when work has been tough, paying someone even for six months would hve been a severe financial issue. Perils of a small firm, we don't have the reserves of the big companies. That's a real red line for me and there's no flex on that. Obviously if it's a huge issue, they can leave, but the rest of the package is sufficiently enticing for them to stay.

    Incidentally of my 23 staff, only one came via a job advert, the rest asked to come to us when we had a vacancy. Not many haulage firms can say that.
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 13th Aug 17, 3:52 PM
    • 448 Posts
    • 364 Thanks
    scd3scd4
    Scd3 - you think supply side economics is rubbish? And the tax implications of wage rises and the effect on inflation is rubbish?

    Don't forget, pensions are investments, everybody's a shareholder

    If you feel like companies are ripping people off, encourage people to buy shares in them
    Originally posted by MatthewAinsworth
    I get shares in my own company.

    I dont consider holiday, sickness and minimum wage as luxury. If a company can not pay it, why should it be topped up by the government.

    Do you think the same about maternity pay?
    • bugslet
    • By bugslet 13th Aug 17, 3:54 PM
    • 5,544 Posts
    • 27,432 Thanks
    bugslet
    There you go, we have something in common - Schnauzers.
    Originally posted by ohreally

    Putting you back on the Christmas card list right now! I have a mini as well. Great breed!
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 13th Aug 17, 4:03 PM
    • 448 Posts
    • 364 Thanks
    scd3scd4
    SSP and there is no way I'm moving on that. If I'm sick I get SSP, I'm dry fair like that and no I don't earn vastly more than my staff. The last few years I've had a small bonus so that I top the highest paid driver by a few hundred quid. One of my customers was a government agency and my current main customer is a big blue chip, the stuff their staff get away with is shocking as regards sickness absence. Much to the annoyance of their non sick pay abusing colleagues.
    Originally posted by bugslet

    Who said abusing. People break legs, get cancer and have heart surgery. I had major surgery. I consider myself fortunate. I am grateful to not just the pass Union reps but the company also.

    btw you sound like a decent boss.
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 13-08-2017 at 4:07 PM.
    • bugslet
    • By bugslet 13th Aug 17, 4:06 PM
    • 5,544 Posts
    • 27,432 Thanks
    bugslet
    Tell you what, in a company which doesnt have 100 per cent Union membership, let the non Union members sign a declaration that they wont get the same rights and benefits as the paid up Union members. For example, if management gives all workers a 1per cent pay increase and its then negotiated to a 3 per cent increase with 2 extra days holiday a year and compassionate leave. The not Union members can have their 1 per cent and 2 less days holiday and no compassionate leave.

    All sorted
    Originally posted by Stylehutz
    And presumably all sorted if union members get 3% and an extra two days and non union get 5% , three days and cakes on their birthday.
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 13th Aug 17, 4:11 PM
    • 448 Posts
    • 364 Thanks
    scd3scd4
    And presumably all sorted if union members get 3% and an extra two days and non union get 5% , three days and cakes on their birthday.
    Originally posted by bugslet
    That does not happen where I work. We would all get the same. The differences is non members get no input. Like I said before. We changed out start and finish times..........I have no idea what non members think about it or if they agreed with the new T&C and over-time rates.
    • bugslet
    • By bugslet 13th Aug 17, 4:11 PM
    • 5,544 Posts
    • 27,432 Thanks
    bugslet
    Who said abusing. People break legs, get cancer and have heart surgery. .

    btw you sound like a decent boss.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    Absolutely, but as we both know, there are people who do abuse it, even if they are in a minority.

    My work is complex and we can go through some bad years and good years. In the bad years, I can't afford to pay full pay. In the good years I possibly could.....but then there's the bad years. I'm upfront with the lads, go get yourself some insurance, I did it when I was the lowest paid and still do.
    • bugslet
    • By bugslet 13th Aug 17, 4:13 PM
    • 5,544 Posts
    • 27,432 Thanks
    bugslet
    That does not happen where I work. We would all get the same. The differences is non members get no input. Like I said before. We changed out start and finish times..........I have no idea what non members think about it or if they agreed with the new T&C and over-time rates.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    Scd, I wouldn't have said that to you but my opinion of stylehutz is probably where yours is of Mr Ainsworth

    Anyway, I'm going to retire from the thread now and go and pootle in the garden.
    • MatthewAinsworth
    • By MatthewAinsworth 13th Aug 17, 4:28 PM
    • 2,840 Posts
    • 1,136 Thanks
    MatthewAinsworth
    Scd3 - owning shares changes our position - there comes a point when workers have to think more about their pension/investments than their salary - if you have shares you want your company to succeed, perhaps at the expense of the workers

    Government top ups are a perversion, if they didn't exist companies would be forced to pay more to keep their staff alive, however there would be fewer jobs. Tax credits are a subsidy for the employer and the value of that needs to be considered, although I suppose that while we have a benefits system the government would've had to pay these people anyway.

    Although government welfare isn't really necessary since employees could insure themselves, and perhaps ought to have some insurance for that

    Maternity perhaps could be covered by private insurance instead, I imagine it is a pain in the employer's butt to have to cover the absence, perhaps insurance could could cover agency costs too, although if the job is hard to replace agency might not be good enough and the employer might more naturally want to hold onto the staff

    I think father's should be liable for this insurance at least as much
    • Stylehutz
    • By Stylehutz 13th Aug 17, 4:32 PM
    • 245 Posts
    • 198 Thanks
    Stylehutz
    And presumably all sorted if union members get 3% and an extra two days and non union get 5% , three days and cakes on their birthday.
    Originally posted by bugslet
    But they would get the 1 per cent as agreed with management
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