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Euro Car Parks - Appeal Rejected - Any help appreciated, please.

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  • poadb
    poadb Posts: 37 Forumite
    I will do - thanks.

    What about Redx's suggestion to make points about POFA2012 and NTK failures?
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,614 Forumite
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    Yes if there are some failures (late NTK, for example).
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  • poadb
    poadb Posts: 37 Forumite
    Sorry, but how do I know that? I'm not sure what POFA2012 or NTK failures are? Any advice?
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,614 Forumite
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    edited 29 July 2017 at 3:32PM
    Looks on other ECP threads. Recent ECP NTKs are not half bad, as long as they get the 'date issued' right.

    On this forum everything has been done to death a hundred times and is here, for want of searching.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
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    POFA2012 failures are where the PPC has failed to follow the law of the land , namely POFA2012 , this is covered in the NEWBIES sticky thread, so failures of the NTK (if one was sent in the post) and the timescales allowed for obtaining keeper details and postal delivery deadlines , so if there are any its a legal point or points you place before POPLA

    an NTK is a Notice To Keeper, so you check the NTK for errors or failures that allow a legal point appeal to popla

    AS MENTIONED ABOVE, THERE ARE DOZENS OF THREADS WITH IT CONTAINED IN THE POSTS , RESEARCH IS THE KEY HERE, WE WONT DO IT FOR YOU , sorry (we dont do spoonfeeding , just pointing adults in the right direction)
  • poadb
    poadb Posts: 37 Forumite
    OK, I've found some really good points to use from the forum, amended for my own case.

    I am submitting it below for final review, please.

    I think I would especially like some proof reading and help with point 2.
    I've left in references to the BEAVIS case, as per the template, referenced (with a photo) the signage available on the Wharf, a map of Wolverhampton Street (not included below) and then discussed the photograph provided by ECP in their rejection letter.


    Have to use PasteBin as text it far too long - hope this is ok??
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
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    split it over 2 or 3 posts
  • poadb
    poadb Posts: 37 Forumite
    Points 1 & 2
    As the registered keeper of the above vehicle, I wish to appeal the parking charge notice Euro Car Parks issued against it. I would like to have the parking charge notice cancelled based on the following grounds:

    1. No evidence of Landowner Authority
    2. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself
    3. BPA Code of Practice - further non-compliance - photo evidence.
    4. Photographic evidences appears doctored.
    5. The signs fail to transparently warn drivers of what the ANPR data will be used for, which breaches the BPA CoP and the CPUTRs due to inherent failure to indicate the 'commercial intent' of the cameras.
    6. Euro Car Parks Notice to Keeper 'issued/given' dates conflict and do not comply with Schedule 4 - No Keeper Liability.
    7. No driver liability.


    1. No evidence of Landowner Authority
    The operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

    Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

    Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and of course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum in small print on a sign because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement).

    Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

    a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement




    2. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself

    There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.

    In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court were keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only:

    imgur.com/a/AkMCN

    In the Beavis case, the £85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.

    Here is the 'Beavis case' sign as a comparison to the signs under dispute in this case:

    2.bp.blogspot.com/-eYdphoIIDgE/VpbCpfSTaiI/AAAAAAAAE10/5uFjL528DgU/s640/Parking%2Bsign_001.jpg



    POPLA Assessor, please note, the fact that a person merely mentions the Beavis case to illustrate that the signs inadequate by comparison with that case, does NOT mean they are saying anything whatsoever about 'loss'. THAT IS NOT MY POINT, WHICH IS ABOUT INADEQUATE SIGNAGE.

    The entrance sign fails to state anything about £100 but it does list hourly tariffs, so it is not merely a brief sign directing you to read the full terms - it purports to BE the full terms:
    The signage I saw when entering the Crown Wharf carpark in Walsall:


    As far as I am aware, as there is insufficient signage to indicate otherwise, the carpark at the Crown Wharf, Walsall spans both sides of the retail carpark.



    It's unclear to visitors or motorists that the two car parks are managed separately. And this surely seemed the case for staff also, who advised me on each visit that parking remained free at the vicinity after 6pm. I should be able to trust the advice and guidance of someone who works at the place I am visiting.



    Here is a Google Map of “The Wharf” as locals know it. It illustrates a commercial shopping area that spans both sides of Wolverhampton Street.



    I must emphasise again; there is no signage or indication to visitors or motorists that the 2 car parks are managed separately or under different rules. The car parks are either side (left and right) of the roundabout, with adequate foot paths and pedestrian crossings to link the retail park for visitors.


    The photograph ECP have supplied of their signage is taken from a short distance away and does not represent a drivers visibility of any signage when entering either of the carparks on The Wharf.

    Therefore, comparing ECP's photograph in this case does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.

    Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.

    It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the POFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge which is hidden in small print (and does not feature at all on some of the signs). Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.

    This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision 5960956830 on 2.6.16, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:

    ''the signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition the operators signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal.''

    From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put the operator to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.

    The letters seem to be no larger than .40 font size going by this guide:

    archive.mozilla.org/newlayout/testcases/css/sec526pt2.htm

    As further evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:

    signazon.com/help-center/sign-letter-height-visibility-chart.aspx

    ''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2” letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3” or even larger.''

    ...and the same chart is reproduced here:

    ebay.co.uk/gds/Outdoor-Dimensional-Sign-Letter-Best-Viewing-Distance-/10000000175068392/g.html

    ''When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall''.

    ''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''

    So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.

    Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':

    (1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.
    (2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.

    The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.

    This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case:

    bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2000/106.html

    This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.

    So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,614 Forumite
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    Euro Car Parks Notice to Keeper 'issued/given' dates conflict and do not comply with Schedule 4 - No Keeper Liability.
    I think they closed that loophole in June, this was where the 'date issued' was before the 'date' on the notice. That won't be the case now, unless you are telling us otherwise?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • poadb
    poadb Posts: 37 Forumite
    Hi - sorry for the delay, I somehow got banned. I think it's because of the amount of I was trying to post in a short amount of time. Fixed now...

    So yeah, the thread I found regarding the NTK help for ECP - you mentioned that that user too that the loophole had closed. However, that person was successful - so I've left it in also.

    Did everything else read ok in Point 2?
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