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  • FIRST POST
    • Jenniflower34
    • By Jenniflower34 8th Aug 17, 5:29 PM
    • 4Posts
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    Jenniflower34
    HMRC debt from 2009 - help please!
    • #1
    • 8th Aug 17, 5:29 PM
    HMRC debt from 2009 - help please! 8th Aug 17 at 5:29 PM
    Background info: had Tax Credits claim in 2008 with ex partner when my son was 2. Split up and he moved out, stopped claim. New claim as a single parent, didn't have a job. Received CTC for several years, no problems.

    Got a part time job in 2013, told HMRC and was put on WTC. All fine. Met new partner last year and moved in together in April 2017. Still working part time but he works full time decent wage so stopped Tax credits as not entitled, ended claim.

    Received letter saying I owe £400 in overpayments of CTC/WTC from 2009 and have to pay it back.
    I NEVER had a letter saying I'd been over paid in 2009 or after, so this is huge shock to me and I'm confused.

    Phoned the number on the letter, went through several options and on hold for 20 minutes, to reach a recorded message that said to dispute a Tax Credit overpayment I would need to fill out a form on their website. Did this and printed it off, posted as per instructions.

    Heard nothing until a week ago, when another letter cane saying they sent me a notice in 2009, and as 3 months is plenty of time to dispute and I hadn't, I had to pay it back. Then the following day received letter from their debt collection agency saying I owe £200 odd, I'm presuming this means they've sent similar letter to my ex partner as it was a joint claim. I have no contact with him, not my son's father, haven't spoken to him in years. So not sure.

    Went to CAB today to ask for advice, they basically said thia happens a lot and I will have to pay it back, but the debt collection agencies are pretty good about setting up payment plan and asked how much I could roughly afford.

    Just can't get my head around this? Them telling me this out of the blue, after 8 years with no proof other than them demanding money? Obviously I haven't got any of my paperwork from back then, I don't keep things for more than 5 years. Does anybody?

    They won't hear my dispute or even consider it, as 3 months is the time limit. But they've taken 8 years to write to me and I have to just accept it.

    I'm adamant I don't owe this money, didn't receive any extra but can't prove it from so long ago.

    Got another appointment at CAB next week to discuss with another advisor and have an income and expenditure form to fill out for both me and my partner- but as I said this is from year's ago so nothing to do with him. He shouldn't have to pay anything even if I do.

    Any advice or has anyone been in a similar situation?
Page 1
    • Icequeen99
    • By Icequeen99 8th Aug 17, 5:54 PM
    • 3,449 Posts
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    Icequeen99
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 17, 5:54 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 17, 5:54 PM
    The legal notification would have been on the final award notice for the 2008/2009 tax year (or 09/10 depending on when you split).

    HMRC haven't had the resources to chase overpayments and only now they are using debt collection agencies are they starting to contact people with debts from earlier years.

    Unfortunately there is really nothing you can do. If it is a joint debt, you should only have to pay half and as CAB said, you can arrange a payment plan.

    You could request copies of your records and award notices for that period, but even if you did the dispute time limit would stop you taking in forward.

    IQ
    • Hoogle
    • By Hoogle 13th Aug 17, 1:22 AM
    • 57 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    Hoogle
    • #3
    • 13th Aug 17, 1:22 AM
    • #3
    • 13th Aug 17, 1:22 AM
    I may be totally wrong as the government seem to be able to have their own rules. But I thought if they couldnt prove contact for a debt older than 6 years old they cant enforce it.....
    • Icequeen99
    • By Icequeen99 13th Aug 17, 7:30 AM
    • 3,449 Posts
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    Icequeen99
    • #4
    • 13th Aug 17, 7:30 AM
    • #4
    • 13th Aug 17, 7:30 AM
    I may be totally wrong as the government seem to be able to have their own rules. But I thought if they couldnt prove contact for a debt older than 6 years old they cant enforce it.....
    Originally posted by Hoogle
    They can't get a county court judgement if it is statute barred after 6 years but they can use many other methods of recovery including from April 2018 getting DWP to do a direct earnings attachment with your employer.

    IQ
    • Darksparkle
    • By Darksparkle 13th Aug 17, 7:39 AM
    • 4,650 Posts
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    Darksparkle
    • #5
    • 13th Aug 17, 7:39 AM
    • #5
    • 13th Aug 17, 7:39 AM
    I may be totally wrong as the government seem to be able to have their own rules. But I thought if they couldnt prove contact for a debt older than 6 years old they cant enforce it.....
    Originally posted by Hoogle
    They can't take it to court after 6 years but they don't need to as they have other ways to pursue the debt.
    • Jenniflower34
    • By Jenniflower34 13th Aug 17, 3:48 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Jenniflower34
    • #6
    • 13th Aug 17, 3:48 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Aug 17, 3:48 PM
    Thanks for replies.
    I'm going back to CAB tomorrow have an appointment and they gave me an income abd expenditure form to fill out for our combined finances.

    Partner not happy about this as he doesn't want to have to pay towards a 'debt' I didn't even know i had til a couple of months ago, from 8 years ago when I lived with an ex partner.

    Considering filling this out just with my details.

    Feeling very fed up with it and like someone else has said the HMRC seem to be able to just make up their own rules? After so many years they can just decide oh you owe thia money we don't have any way of proving it but pay us this money or the debt collectors are coming round.

    The bloke at CAB told me most people end up paying these debts back and just can't understand how this is allowed to happen when I made sure everything was filled in correctly and above board.
    • Icequeen99
    • By Icequeen99 13th Aug 17, 7:09 PM
    • 3,449 Posts
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    Icequeen99
    • #7
    • 13th Aug 17, 7:09 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Aug 17, 7:09 PM
    Thanks for replies.
    I'm going back to CAB tomorrow have an appointment and they gave me an income abd expenditure form to fill out for our combined finances.

    Partner not happy about this as he doesn't want to have to pay towards a 'debt' I didn't even know i had til a couple of months ago, from 8 years ago when I lived with an ex partner.

    Considering filling this out just with my details.

    Feeling very fed up with it and like someone else has said the HMRC seem to be able to just make up their own rules? After so many years they can just decide oh you owe thia money we don't have any way of proving it but pay us this money or the debt collectors are coming round.

    The bloke at CAB told me most people end up paying these debts back and just can't understand how this is allowed to happen when I made sure everything was filled in correctly and above board.
    Originally posted by Jenniflower34
    HMRC would say they haven't just decided you owe this money - they decided that you owed it in 2009 and sent you a notice saying that you owed it but you didn't dispute it or challenge it at the time and they then didn't chase it up.

    You should only be paying half of the debt and your ex-partner the other half.

    IQ
    • Jenniflower34
    • By Jenniflower34 14th Aug 17, 1:21 AM
    • 4 Posts
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    Jenniflower34
    • #8
    • 14th Aug 17, 1:21 AM
    • #8
    • 14th Aug 17, 1:21 AM
    HMRC would say they haven't just decided you owe this money - they decided that you owed it in 2009 and sent you a notice saying that you owed it but you didn't dispute it or challenge it at the time and they then didn't chase it up.

    You should only be paying half of the debt and your ex-partner the other half.

    IQ
    Originally posted by Icequeen99
    Yes but clearly I never received such notice in 2009 as I would have asked for clarification or proof then, that's the point isn't it?

    Pretty difficult to challenge or dispute something within a set period of time that you know nothing about!
    • Darksparkle
    • By Darksparkle 14th Aug 17, 6:25 AM
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    Darksparkle
    • #9
    • 14th Aug 17, 6:25 AM
    • #9
    • 14th Aug 17, 6:25 AM
    Yes but clearly I never received such notice in 2009 as I would have asked for clarification or proof then, that's the point isn't it?

    Pretty difficult to challenge or dispute something within a set period of time that you know nothing about!
    Originally posted by Jenniflower34
    To them if a letter has been issued and not returned by Royal Mail then it is treated as received.
    • Icequeen99
    • By Icequeen99 14th Aug 17, 8:04 AM
    • 3,449 Posts
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    Icequeen99
    Yes but clearly I never received such notice in 2009 as I would have asked for clarification or proof then, that's the point isn't it?

    Pretty difficult to challenge or dispute something within a set period of time that you know nothing about!
    Originally posted by Jenniflower34
    There would have been more than 1 letter. You should have received a final award notice for the year, and then a notice to pay following that (normally about 6 weeks later).

    The award notices are hard to understand, in most cases I have dealt with people have missed the overpayment in Section 3.

    You could do a request for a copy of the final award notice for that year. If they didn't issue a notice or the overpayment wasn't on the notice then they don't have a legal power to recover it. In 14 years I have never seen that happen.

    IQ
    • venison
    • By venison 14th Aug 17, 11:04 PM
    • 1,281 Posts
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    venison
    I'd tell them that I would pay £200 and they can chase your ex for the other £200 then agree to repay £10 a week surely your new partner could cough up a fiver ?
    I am now a Board Guide on the Credit card board and the Loan board and Benefits board (But give me time to learn the ropes thanks).
    • Mersey
    • By Mersey 21st Aug 17, 11:18 PM
    • 1,601 Posts
    • 774 Thanks
    Mersey
    To them if a letter has been issued and not returned by Royal Mail then it is treated as received.
    Originally posted by Darksparkle


    Yes, that's the postal rule often cited in civil matters and is true in 99% of cases.


    Although in Tribunal appeals against both the DWP & HMRC I did succeed even though they said they'd sent it, as I provided evidence that they had been addressing the claimant/appellant minus his flat number and that explains why service of the notice was not effective.
    Please be polite to OPs and remember this is a site for Claimants and Appellants to seek redress against their bank, ex-boss or retailer. If they wanted morality or the view of the IoD or Bank they'd ask them.
    • dippy3103
    • By dippy3103 21st Aug 17, 11:58 PM
    • 1,728 Posts
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    dippy3103
    I'd set up a repayment plan before they go down the route of attaching your income. They will probably accept a lower repayment each week if you are making "voluntary" repayments.

    Out of interest, was it your bank account that the tax credits were paid?
    • Living proof
    • By Living proof 23rd Aug 17, 8:55 PM
    • 1,230 Posts
    • 8,039 Thanks
    Living proof
    To them if a letter has been issued and not returned by Royal Mail then it is treated as received.
    Originally posted by Darksparkle
    Yes, I had a letter from them today dated 3rd August. Only 20 days hanging about in the system then!
    Solar Suntellite 250 x16 4kW Afore 3600TL dual 2KW E 2KW W no shade, DN15 March 14
    Mortgage and Debt Free. Unfortunately Pension Free too!
    • Jenniflower34
    • By Jenniflower34 14th Oct 17, 10:55 AM
    • 4 Posts
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    Jenniflower34
    I had a letter last week from HMRC saying they are not going to try to recover the amount, but if I make a new claim for tax credits it may be deducted. Not planning on claiming them again as I have a full time job now and don't need tax credits.
    Just wanted to say thanks to those who replied - but your advice was exactly what the CAB told me to do, don't argue just pay it. I wasn't happy with this and sent HMRC a long letter recorded delivery explaining I understand they think they are exempt from the 6 year statute barred rule, but their demands were unreasonable.
    I think a lot of the advice on here is based in what you're "officially" told is the right thing to say and do when it comes to dealing with HMRC, and that isn't always the best approach.
    • Mersey
    • By Mersey 14th Oct 17, 11:22 PM
    • 1,601 Posts
    • 774 Thanks
    Mersey
    I had a letter last week from HMRC saying they are not going to try to recover the amount, but if I make a new claim for tax credits it may be deducted. Not planning on claiming them again as I have a full time job now and don't need tax credits.
    Originally posted by Jenniflower34

    That's good to hear.
    Please be polite to OPs and remember this is a site for Claimants and Appellants to seek redress against their bank, ex-boss or retailer. If they wanted morality or the view of the IoD or Bank they'd ask them.
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