storage heaters/electric central heating or gas?

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  • JackieHW
    JackieHW Posts: 1 Newbie
    Hello

    I have found this site when searching for info on Economy 10. I have recently aquired 2 flats (both with no gas to the blocks) with existing storage heaters and panel heaters. One is BTL and the other refurb and re-sell. I have enough cash to start with a clean slate for heating. (No chance of gas option though) - which way is the best to go? I have seen these water filled rads - they do look the business and say 20% more ecomonical than Storage Heaters so am tempted - but I need the right elec package I think - am I on the right track or heading for big mistake?
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,036 Forumite
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    JackieHW wrote: »
    Hello

    I have found this site when searching for info on Economy 10. I have recently aquired 2 flats (both with no gas to the blocks) with existing storage heaters and panel heaters. One is BTL and the other refurb and re-sell. I have enough cash to start with a clean slate for heating. (No chance of gas option though) - which way is the best to go? I have seen these water filled rads - they do look the business and say 20% more ecomonical than Storage Heaters so am tempted - but I need the right elec package I think - am I on the right track or heading for big mistake?

    Welcome to the forum.

    Depends what you mean by water filled radiators.

    Don't believe the advertising blurb about most of these water filled radiators as they simply run on normal daytime electricity and are no more efficient than your Grandma's 1 bar electric fire or a fan heater. I would like to see details of the claim that they can be 20% more efficient than storage heating.

    Electrical heating of any kind is the most expensive option for running costs unless you use some sort of storage heating; either the conventional storage heaters or to a thermal store and radiators.

    I suggest that the conventional storage heating would be the best option for your purposes; cheap to install, no maintenance and with modern systems pretty efficient.
  • TRINITY
    TRINITY Posts: 5 Forumite
    I am converting half a large house into 2 2 bed flats for family. The whole house is served by GSH. However to get seperate boilers into the flats I have been told I have to put in 2 new gas supplies at cost of £4000. Yhen there is the cost of seperating central heating and 2 new combi boilers. I lookes at Kalirel, quoted £1250 per flat.
    Do you think I should go with gas despite cost
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,036 Forumite
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    Who told you that you have to get 2 new gas supplies into a house that already has GSH?

    Surely the supply and meter can remain in one of the flats(it might have to be re-sited) and it is just a matter of taking a branch feed off to the other flat?

    Would not another option be to have one meter and hence one bill for both flats(if it is for your family) and have another meter in the other flat - that sort of arrangement happens in student type flats all the time; e.g. the landlord pays the bill and charges the flat occupants. The bills will be cheaper than 2 separate supplies with 2 meters as you will not have to pay the 'standing charge'(or extra for first units each quarter) twice.
  • Chrislincs
    Chrislincs Posts: 17 Forumite
    Hi again,
    Still looking for solution to heating probs. Been on energy savings trust forum where a guy called Roger Martin says he reckons to get 50% savings on bill using electrowarm rads, presumably over EWCHS. Are these the water-filled talked of above? The web site says they equal E7 SHs, but they would, wouldn't they! Seems they do need to be on at day rates for 25% of the time, so would be humungous in my book, surely.
    Also found that Southern Electric, who w urrently ise, advertise E10 on line, albeit much dearer than current E7 tarriff. However, when I emailed them about it they reckoned it not appropriate for SHs - poss because they don't know enough about it, or don't want to be bothered with it. If not for me then do they assume that it does suit EWCHS, although to me it would seem to take away the flexibility of the system.
    We are cold at the moment, and reluctant to turn rads on full for fear of bills. Can Cardew, or anyone, tell me if they do actually use much more when run at higher temps (storage heaters, that is), please. we currently pay £109 pcm for all electric, bar wood burner and calor gas hob, det bungalow.
    ta everso
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,036 Forumite
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    Chrislincs wrote: »
    Hi again,
    Still looking for solution to heating probs. Been on energy savings trust forum where a guy called Roger Martin says he reckons to get 50% savings on bill using electrowarm rads, presumably over EWCHS. Are these the water-filled talked of above? The web site says they equal E7 SHs, but they would, wouldn't they! Seems they do need to be on at day rates for 25% of the time, so would be humungous in my book, surely.
    Also found that Southern Electric, who w urrently ise, advertise E10 on line, albeit much dearer than current E7 tarriff. However, when I emailed them about it they reckoned it not appropriate for SHs - poss because they don't know enough about it, or don't want to be bothered with it. If not for me then do they assume that it does suit EWCHS, although to me it would seem to take away the flexibility of the system.
    We are cold at the moment, and reluctant to turn rads on full for fear of bills. Can Cardew, or anyone, tell me if they do actually use much more when run at higher temps (storage heaters, that is), please. we currently pay £109 pcm for all electric, bar wood burner and calor gas hob, det bungalow.
    ta everso

    What do you mean by 'higher temperatures' for storage heaters? The higher the temperatures of any 'body' the quicker it will lose heat. e.g. a kettle of boiling water will cool(lose heat) quicker from 100C to 90C than, say, 70C to 60C.

    I am afraid that a 2 bed bungalow will cost a lot to heat by storage heating but, if you don't have gas, electric storage heating is the cheapest method available and much much cheaper than any form of electrical heating running on daytime electricity.

    These water filled CH systems like Kalirel/Electrowarm etc are simply radiators filled with a fluid and produce no more heat for 1kWh input than any other electrical heater, including granny's old electric one bar fire.

    Kalirel/Electrowarm radiators are just like oil filled radiators(costing £20/£30 each) and produce no more heat for a given input. Their websites are IMO a disgrace in that they use all the buzz words like 'eco' and 'green' and are totally misleading.

    In particular Electrowarm's figures are a disgrace. When all the stupid meaningless calculations are followed through; they state that their heaters produce the same heat from 7kWh in a day as storage heaters produce from 23.8kWh in a day and conclude that they will heat a room for 73p a day and storage heating will cost £1.48 a day. Criminal!

    If they dared to put these calculations in media other than the internet they would be hammered by the Advertising standards authority and every Trading Standards Authority.
  • amtrakuk
    amtrakuk Posts: 630 Forumite
    I currently have a gas supply, i live in a 3 bed, end terrace Back to Back. I bought the house 5 years ago and have a combi boiler. Recently the boiler has started to break down - pilot light going out. I have had british gas in to have a look at the boiler under the service plan I have and have been told the boiler is due to be replaced. Over a few day without heat I have been doing my homework. Both reading on the web, british gas and B&Q, a combi boiler has a 10 year life span. I have been with BG for my supply since moving in, my gas bill works out at £40 per month. On the basis of a 10 year life of a combi boiler and the supply and installation of a boiler ranging from 1k to 2.5k surely electric is cheaper? So I've done a project for my house.

    My electric with BG is 16p per unit for the first tier and then 9.5p per unit there after. I'm using Glen 1.2kw oil filled radiators to heat the front room, kitchen and 2 bedrooms.

    OK it not sweltering hot in the front room (16-17 degrees) with an outside temp this month on average of -1 degrees C.

    My electric consumption without heating hot water works out at about £80 per month.

    Im not telling granny to suck eggs but gas can work out expensive too. You're DD that for me was £40 per month, I had a service contract at £20 a month. The depreciation of a boiler over 10 years (2.5k/10 years = 250.00/year, divide by 12 months - £20 per month) all ads up, £20 depreciation + £20 servicing + £40 gas supply ads to £80 a month just to run and use a boiler. Multiply by 12 and you're talking of about £960 a year. After all I know Im not including hot water but I calculate my electric bill during the 4 months of the cold weather I reckon without hot water my electric bill should be £360.00 for winter + £320 for other times = £680 a year, thats still £280 cheaper than gas and the heaters are cheaper to replace as and when they fail.

    I've been advised by BG and B&Q to avoid the £500 combi condensing boilers as they only last 3-4 years a good 1k boiler should last 10 years. The replacement/fitting is almost as much as the boiler. I know from quotes.

    I'm playing with the idea of instead of keeping the heaters on full and on plug in timers, keeping them on low 24/7. Will see from the meter readings.

    Am feeling comfotable at the mo except for cold feet!
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,036 Forumite
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    AmtrakUK,
    Interesting post.

    There is no doubt that the 'hidden' cost of gas CH(eg boiler replacement costs + servicing/safety checks) is ignored by many people.

    Indeed a major factor you have missed in your calculations is the cost of borrowing the £2,500(or loss of interest if you pay cash) At 6% that is another £150 a year.

    There was an article in the Daily Telegraph some while ago(I posted a link to it on this forum) that argued the case very well for electrical heating - particularly in smaller properties - and used the same reasoning as you. See

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=173127&highlight=Telegraph

    Personally I doubt if you will make a saving(or even break even) using daytime electricity rates; but storage heating might be another story!
  • kirsteenatom
    kirsteenatom Posts: 1,062 Forumite
    I have a real beginners question - our house has gas central heating, with radiators in the living room, kitchen, main bedroom, second bedroom and hall. Our sofa is against the radiator in the living room, our massive headboard against it in the bedroom, and the spare bedroom is not being used as our son still sleeps in our room. The kitchen radiator is right by the door and the hall one is right by the front door.

    I figured if we put th eheating on we would be wasting money like no tomorrow as it bounced off th eback of furniture and up out of the windows, or snuck out through the doors, so we have been using an electric heater in the living room to warm the room - we spend all our time in there when home, and we don't mind having a cold bedroom as we all snuggle up.

    I thought this would be more energy efficient, but am now worried that I don't really know and might be making assumptions.

    The heater has settings at 750w, 1250w and 2000w and a fan as well. We just use it on the 2000w with no fan.

    Is this relaly the most energy efficient way for us to keep warm?

    any advice MUCH appreciated

    Kirsteen
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,036 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post Rampant Recycler
    kirsteenatom wrote: »
    I have a real beginners question - our house has gas central heating, with radiators in the living room, kitchen, main bedroom, second bedroom and hall. Our sofa is against the radiator in the living room, our massive headboard against it in the bedroom, and the spare bedroom is not being used as our son still sleeps in our room. The kitchen radiator is right by the door and the hall one is right by the front door.

    I figured if we put th eheating on we would be wasting money like no tomorrow as it bounced off th eback of furniture and up out of the windows, or snuck out through the doors, so we have been using an electric heater in the living room to warm the room - we spend all our time in there when home, and we don't mind having a cold bedroom as we all snuggle up.

    I thought this would be more energy efficient, but am now worried that I don't really know and might be making assumptions.

    The heater has settings at 750w, 1250w and 2000w and a fan as well. We just use it on the 2000w with no fan.

    Is this relaly the most energy efficient way for us to keep warm?

    any advice MUCH appreciated

    Kirsteen

    No using an electrical heater is probably the least efficient way to keep warm!

    Furniture/headboards should be a few inches away from the radiator to allow air to circulate; but many of this have the situation of radiators behind furniture.

    Electricity costs between 3 and 4 times as much to produce heat as gas.

    To have gas CH and use electricity instead is a mistake.
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