Why would the average investor open an equity ISA?

This one's got me stumped... Seriously, if the only advantage it offers me is CGT throughout the life of the ISA (till I withdraw / redeem it), then I anyway have a CGT relief outside of the ISA to the extent of £8500. If I know for a fact that I would never have a situation where the Capital Gains I might make would exceed £8500, why would I go for an equity ISA at all?

Am I missing something basic here? Please tell me if this is the case, with illustrations of how an ISA would be better for me as an average equity investor.

Or maybe I am taking an absolutely short-term perspective, and indeed, in the long term, it makes a difference, as Capital Gains may exceed £8500???

Can I also request for views on the best equity ISA / non-ISA investment avenue currently available? Needless to say, all I am soliciting are views, and not advice, and I understand that I'd be fully responsible for any investment decision I take.
It's always the grass that suffers, irrespective of whether the elephants are fighting or making love !!!
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Comments

  • dunstonh
    dunstonh Posts: 116,318 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post Combo Breaker
    Its not only CGT. Sure, Gordon Brown took away many of the advantages but there are still benefits.

    1 - CGT. Yes, start with the basic. In the 1990s you could double your money in 3 years at one point. Indeed, those that invested 2 years ago could have nearly doubled their money now. Remember CGT is your overall realised gain and not just one investment. Use your allowances over the years and you can save yourself CGT.

    2 - Income tax. Higher rate taxpayers benefit and those that are borderline high rate taxpayers benefit by not being pushed into higher rate tax.

    3 - Age allowance. The income on ISAs does not impact on age allowance and force a reduction.

    4 - Pension credit. The income from the ISA does not get included for pension credit. Although to be honest, not many are going to have equity ISAs if they are on pension credit.

    5 - Corporate Bond/Gilts are still tax free in an ISA.

    6 - Retirement planning. Build up a fund inside an ISA to supplement your pension and then when you retire and switch the ISA to income paying assets, that income is tax free and does not get included on any tax return.

    For ISAs, the best option is a fund supermarket. There are 4 big ones and each has its pros and cons. e.g. one doesnt allow regular withdrawals, one charges on switching, one has potential double charging. However, having access to all those funds is pretty good. That being said, whenever i place an ISA I still check the funds are not available cheaper from the provider themselves and I check the 4 supermarkets as they all run different offers from time to time. Suggest you do the same if you go down that route.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • carnet
    carnet Posts: 501 Forumite
    I just do not understand why a Labour Government abolished the dividend tax reclaim on equity ISA's.

    For basic rate taxpayers unlikely to need to utilize their full CGT exemption limit this was essentially the only useful perk associated with ISA's (but see below).

    The upshot of this is that ISA's are now far more beneficial to the minority (higher rate taxpayers) than for the majority (basic rate taxpayers).

    Why would a Labour Chancellor reduce the benefits of the majority of investors, especially when they keep pounding on about the need for the nation to save more ?

    Typical half-baked thinking we have come to expect of this Chancellor/Govt.

    The only real reason for most basic rate taxpayers to continue investing in equity Unit Trust/OEIC ISAs is that, if doing so through a discount broker, very often it is actually cheaper (viz bigger initial charge discounts) to do so inside rather than outside the ISA wrapper.
  • cheerfulcat
    cheerfulcat Posts: 3,336 Forumite
    Name Dropper Combo Breaker First Post First Anniversary
    Hi, Walletwatch,

    But you can't know for a fact that you will never have a capital gain of £8500.If you are a serious investor for the long term, it is quite possible to have gains of this sort and more. Granted, you are unlikely ever to have to pay CGT if your only investment is one year's worth of stocks and shares ISA, but even so...

    I speak from experience, btw. I only ever took up two years' worth of PEP allowances, thinking that as a non-taxpayer they were of no use to me ( that was what everyone always said, you see ). Now, of course, I wish that I hadn't been so stupid :-(

    HTH

    Cheerfulcat
  • dunstonh
    dunstonh Posts: 116,318 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post Combo Breaker

    I just do not understand why a Labour Government abolished the dividend tax reclaim on equity ISA's.

    I seem to recall reading that it was worth around £350 mill a year to the treasury. What better way for a Labour Govt to raise taxes. Do it on people's savings where they wont blame Labour for lower returns but blame the financial services companies.
    Why would a Labour Chancellor reduce the benefits of the majority of investors, especially when they keep pounding on about the need for the nation to save more ?

    This is the same Labour Govt that takes £5 billion a year out of pension funds. Interestingly, the pensions gap is currently valued at around the same amount that Gordon Brown has taken from pension funds.

    Again, this Govt doesnt like direct taxation but adores indirect taxation. Especially when they think others are going to get blamed for the impact of that taxation.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • Reaper
    Reaper Posts: 7,279 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Photogenic
    There is one other benefit of an ISA which I like (being lazy). You don't have to include it in your tax return, so no need to list dividend payments, capital gains etc.
  • carnet
    carnet Posts: 501 Forumite
    Can I also request for views on the best equity ISA / non-ISA investment avenue currently available? Needless to say, all I am soliciting are views, and not advice, and I understand that I'd be fully responsible for any investment decision I take.

    Having tried just about every UK discount broker at one time or another over the past 20 years, I currently use Hargreaves Lansdown's Vantage Service which I've found to have about the best initial charge discounts around and is one of the few discount brokers to also kick-back some of their annual commision by way of a "Loyalty Bonus".

    Their range of available funds seems to be as extensive, if not more so, than any of the other "Fund Supermarkets" and you can invest lump sums and/or regular monthly savings up to the current Maxi/Mini ISA limits.

    I prefer to invest on a regular monthly basis as this reduces the risk of poor market timing/benefits from Pound Cost Averaging.

    The Vantage Service can also be used for investments outside an ISA wrapper to keep them all in one place with the minimum of paperwork.

    I have no association with HL, just a satisfied customer, and would be interested to learn if anyone knows of a better deal anywhere and why.

    Of course if you are looking for specific investment advice this is all but impossible not knowing your personal circumstances, tolerance to risk, investment objectives, time horizon etc etc. Not to mention not allowed under FSA rules !

    I can tell you what I am currently investing in and why but this will probably be of little help to you.

    Best general advice I can give is this - follow the fund manager not the fund.
  • deemy2004
    deemy2004 Posts: 6,201 Forumite
    Reaper wrote:
    There is one other benefit of an ISA which I like (being lazy). You don't have to include it in your tax return, so no need to list dividend payments, capital gains etc.


    Yeh for me too.

    So many piffly little dividends to remember from all over the place. so much better of moving equities into ISA's and offcourse as said above incme from gilts and corp bonds is tax free.
  • Walletwatch
    Walletwatch Posts: 1,055 Forumite
    dunstonh wrote:
    Its not only CGT. Sure, Gordon Brown took away many of the advantages but there are still benefits.

    1 - CGT. Yes, start with the basic. In the 1990s you could double your money in 3 years at one point. Indeed, those that invested 2 years ago could have nearly doubled their money now. Remember CGT is your overall realised gain and not just one investment. Use your allowances over the years and you can save yourself CGT.

    2 - Income tax. Higher rate taxpayers benefit and those that are borderline high rate taxpayers benefit by not being pushed into higher rate tax.

    3 - Age allowance. The income on ISAs does not impact on age allowance and force a reduction.

    4 - Pension credit. The income from the ISA does not get included for pension credit. Although to be honest, not many are going to have equity ISAs if they are on pension credit.

    5 - Corporate Bond/Gilts are still tax free in an ISA.

    6 - Retirement planning. Build up a fund inside an ISA to supplement your pension and then when you retire and switch the ISA to income paying assets, that income is tax free and does not get included on any tax return.

    For ISAs, the best option is a fund supermarket. There are 4 big ones and each has its pros and cons. e.g. one doesnt allow regular withdrawals, one charges on switching, one has potential double charging. However, having access to all those funds is pretty good. That being said, whenever i place an ISA I still check the funds are not available cheaper from the provider themselves and I check the 4 supermarkets as they all run different offers from time to time. Suggest you do the same if you go down that route.

    Thanks for your responses. I think I will go for an ISA each for me and the missus, and maybe put in £500-1000 in each of them. Have had a meeting with the Halifax FA last week, and gone through the options with them. Have another meeting with Abbey tomorrow.

    I think I will take the income option with a cautious /medium portfolio - am going to start something adventurous side by side, by opening a Halifax sharesave account though, and invest in the FTSE.

    Could you expand though, on the four fund supermarkets you refer to above? Which are these, and what are their traits?
    It's always the grass that suffers, irrespective of whether the elephants are fighting or making love !!!
  • dunstonh
    dunstonh Posts: 116,318 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Anniversary First Post Combo Breaker
    Don't use a bank for equity ISAs. Their funds are expensive and traditionally underperform. Halifax do have an offer on one of theirs at the moment which makes is a little cheaper (no initial charge) but its still not a great fund.

    A funds supermarket is what it sounds. The ISA provider is just an administrator providing you with online information, transactions and statements. They have a range of usually many hundreds of funds from all the major fund managers.

    The main four supermarkets are cofunds, fidelity fundsnetwork, selestia and skandia. Cofunds is one of the most widely used by the online websites as they have a website plugin which allows online dealing. Negatives on cofunds are that you cannot take regular withdrawals from their ISAs and they have a 1% switching charge. Cofunds service is awful from an admin point of view. I have contacted them 3 times on an issue since late Jan and they havent responded once yet. Fidelity is a good all rounder although the postal information you get on your holdings is not extensive. Good online site and tools though. Selestia is a good provider. They tend to have special offers on funds periodically making them quite cheap on some funds. I have found their service excellent on the whole. Indeed, when i contact them, i virtually always get through to the same person. Skandia is one I havent used on the ISA side although i have heavily used them on pensions. Their service on pensions is excellent and I have no reason to believe it would be different with their ISAs. I have been given the impression though that they are more expensive to use than the other fund supermarkets (although still cheaper than the banks generally).

    A lesser used option is Sterling. They have a smaller range of funds available but they do have a guarantee return in the event of death of your original investment or the value, whichever is higher. This can be useful for those later on in life who may be put off by equity risk but like the idea that their estate will at least get the money back if it all goes wrong.

    Most allow £1000 per fund min investment. It is worth having multiple funds as no-one knows what is going to be best so spreading it around helps. Spreading it with a fund supermarket is easy. Spreading it with a tied provider doesnt give you much option when they may only offer a handful of funds.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • cheerfulcat
    cheerfulcat Posts: 3,336 Forumite
    Name Dropper Combo Breaker First Post First Anniversary
    Thanks for your responses. I think I will go for an ISA each for me and the missus, and maybe put in £500-1000 in each of them. Have had a meeting with the Halifax FA last week, and gone through the options with them. Have another meeting with Abbey tomorrow.

    I think I will take the income option with a cautious /medium portfolio - am going to start something adventurous side by side, by opening a Halifax sharesave account though, and invest in the FTSE.

    Could you expand though, on the four fund supermarkets you refer to above? Which are these, and what are their traits?

    Have a look at the ISA wrappers ( which is all you need ) from Hargreaves Lansdown and comdirect. They are the cheapest way to hold investments in an ISA.
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