Question re PIP atos assessment

Yesterday I accompanied my friend to his PIP assessment.
As the assessment was taking place it became obvious that the assessor just wanted Yes or No answers to her questions.

About 5 minutes into the so called assessment I asked her if she had actually read the PIP form that my friend had completed and also if she had seen the medical evidence provided by GP & Consultants. She said the she didn't have access to that information and that her job was to ask the questions and fill in the answers that my friend gave her??

I said that I found this to be absolutely ridiculous and asked how on earth someones medical conditions could be assessed in this manner. Her answer to this was a shrug of the shoulders.

The whole assessment took less than 30 minutes. She "examined" my friends arm movements and shoulders without even asking him to remove his coat!

Is this a normal state of affairs at an Atos assessment?

I am 99.9% certain that my friend will now lose his PIP allowance that he was previously awarded in 2015 even though his condition has worsened since the initial reward.
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  • Muttleythefrog
    Muttleythefrog Posts: 19,725
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    edited 11 March 2017 at 2:13PM
    The HCP is meant to read all evidence before the assessment including obviously any completed PIP2 form which should act to inform them of the claimed difficulties and therefore direct the sorts of investigations they need to carry out. Unfortunately often they take short cuts... but the HCP certainly should have access to those documents... and it would be alarming that they claim they did not. This sounds like a much worse than standard case... where the assessor sounds very dismissive of their role or responsibilities...'fill in the answers' sounds at odds with the role and even the report they're generating. They try to get through these assessments efficiently and often will try to keep things simple for that end... it's important claimant gives relevant information for the various activities that present difficulties and don't allow the HCP to simply dismiss them (and thus select the default a. descriptor for the activity within the software).

    Two issue here. First on Monday call the number at top of DWP PIP letter and ask for a copy of the PA4 Consultant report that should have been electronically transmitted pretty quickly by ATOS to the DWP. That PA4 effectively will tell you all you need to know about what the HCP thought and the DWP may effectively come to essentially rubber stamp the conclusions in it in making decision/award.

    2nd issue. Armed with that evidence and given what you've said I would seriously consider making a complaint to ATOS HC about this HCP and the assessment including the admission they didn't have the evidence supplied for the claim. If the report is extremely dodgy and damaging to claim with poor choice of descriptors I'd be inclined to try to write to the DWP Decision maker prior to them making a decision detailing challenge to the report content and stating you are making formal complaints to ATOS HC (and potentially the HCP's regulatory body) due to the HCP's conduct. It may give them food for thought before rubber stamping the report conclusions. Obviously also focus their attention onto the descriptors that should apply and why... presenting any supporting evidence.

    Since he has previously had an award you may get fortunate... in that either previous evidence may influence DWP decision or later be successfully argued to be more accurate.

    Anyway that's my snap reaction to this with advice... others may differ in opinion. But I would try to get on the front foot. First get the PA4 report.. might be able to get within week.

    In answer to your question 'is this a normal state of affairs at ATOS'. My view would be that it perhaps in practice mirrors much of what happens.. but it is rare I imagine for the apparent openness of amateurism and contempt for claimant or duty to be revealed at assessment as is described here. The way you describe it is like someone who has turned up for a shift at a conveyor belt to sort recyclable materials... I expect they saw you very much as a piece of contamination like my wife seemed to be at mine.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
  • pampam
    pampam Posts: 432
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    Thank you for your response to my thread.
    Do you think I will be able to make the request for the PA4 report on behalf of my friend? I doubt very much if he will do that himself due to his state of mind.
    Can I briefly tell you some of the relevant details of the claim.
    Joe was knocked down on a pelican crossing by a hit and run driver in December 2013. He suffered injuries to both his shoulders and has had a total of 3 surgical ops on them. Unfortunately the surgery was unsuccessful and he is very restricted in the movements of his arms. He was also diagnosed with PTS and suffers from flashback, nightmares and severe depression. He is on medication for this.
    In 2015 he was awarded the higher rate of PIP for care.
    Following his assessment yesterday he has gone into a really low state and is convinced that his allowance will stop. He is talking about not carrying on any longer and thinks suicide would end all his stress.
    I am extremely concerned about him. Prior to the accident he was self employed in the building trade and was very good at his job. He has been unable to work since the accident but is unable to claim any sickness benefit due to him being Self Employed. He has obviously lost his business and without the help of the PIP allowance he will certainly lose his home as he still has quite a large mortgage.
    I have tried to tell him that if he loses his allowance I will help him to appeal but he is so low he just cannot see the point of going on.
    I am sorry if I have gone on a bit but I am so concerned. He has worked really hard all his life and has ended up in this position through no fault of his own.
    The nomark who ran him over is well known to the police as a drug dealer but he has walked away scot free as the police said they did not have enough evidence to take the matter to court.
  • pmlindyloo
    pmlindyloo Posts: 13,049
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    pampam wrote: »
    Thank you for your response to my thread.
    Do you think I will be able to make the request for the PA4 report on behalf of my friend? I doubt very much if he will do that himself due to his state of mind.
    Can I briefly tell you some of the relevant details of the claim.
    Joe was knocked down on a pelican crossing by a hit and run driver in December 2013. He suffered injuries to both his shoulders and has had a total of 3 surgical ops on them. Unfortunately the surgery was unsuccessful and he is very restricted in the movements of his arms. He was also diagnosed with PTS and suffers from flashback, nightmares and severe depression. He is on medication for this.
    In 2015 he was awarded the higher rate of PIP for care.
    Following his assessment yesterday he has gone into a really low state and is convinced that his allowance will stop. He is talking about not carrying on any longer and thinks suicide would end all his stress.
    I am extremely concerned about him. Prior to the accident he was self employed in the building trade and was very good at his job. He has been unable to work since the accident but is unable to claim any sickness benefit due to him being Self Employed. He has obviously lost his business and without the help of the PIP allowance he will certainly lose his home as he still has quite a large mortgage.
    I have tried to tell him that if he loses his allowance I will help him to appeal but he is so low he just cannot see the point of going on.
    I am sorry if I have gone on a bit but I am so concerned. He has worked really hard all his life and has ended up in this position through no fault of his own.
    The nomark who ran him over is well known to the police as a drug dealer but he has walked away scot free as the police said they did not have enough evidence to take the matter to court.

    Has he enquired about Employment Support Allowance?

    Of course I do not know his personal circumstances - whether he has a wife who works/whether he paid his NI contributions when self employed so cannot say for sure whether he would be entitled to ESA.
  • Muttleythefrog
    Muttleythefrog Posts: 19,725
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    pampam wrote: »
    Thank you for your response to my thread.
    Do you think I will be able to make the request for the PA4 report on behalf of my friend? I doubt very much if he will do that himself due to his state of mind.
    Can I briefly tell you some of the relevant details of the claim.
    Joe was knocked down on a pelican crossing by a hit and run driver in December 2013. He suffered injuries to both his shoulders and has had a total of 3 surgical ops on them. Unfortunately the surgery was unsuccessful and he is very restricted in the movements of his arms. He was also diagnosed with PTS and suffers from flashback, nightmares and severe depression. He is on medication for this.
    In 2015 he was awarded the higher rate of PIP for care.
    Following his assessment yesterday he has gone into a really low state and is convinced that his allowance will stop. He is talking about not carrying on any longer and thinks suicide would end all his stress.
    I am extremely concerned about him. Prior to the accident he was self employed in the building trade and was very good at his job. He has been unable to work since the accident but is unable to claim any sickness benefit due to him being Self Employed. He has obviously lost his business and without the help of the PIP allowance he will certainly lose his home as he still has quite a large mortgage.
    I have tried to tell him that if he loses his allowance I will help him to appeal but he is so low he just cannot see the point of going on.
    I am sorry if I have gone on a bit but I am so concerned. He has worked really hard all his life and has ended up in this position through no fault of his own.
    The nomark who ran him over is well known to the police as a drug dealer but he has walked away scot free as the police said they did not have enough evidence to take the matter to court.
    On the first question... you could call on their behalf but almost certainly they'll ask for them to answer some security questions before they go into matters with you... telephone number, DOB.. what benefits they get.. that sort of thing... perhaps 2 or 3 questions... then hand the phone back to you.

    Just scanning across what you've written as got a workman here... obviously they've been incredibly unfortunate... wonder if they can get an out of work benefit like ESA.. others may be better to advise. It is worth saying on the PIP... nothing is lost yet and there are options ahead if things go wrong... little comfort to his mind perhaps... but this is far from over and the PA4 may hold pleasant surprises. Best bet is keep us updated here. Hopefully others have good advice on wider income issues.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
  • pampam
    pampam Posts: 432
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    I think he may be entitled to ESA now as what savings he had have down dwindled away due to using them to pay his mortgage etc.
    I was hoping to help him with putting in an ESA claim once we got his PIP sorted out. However, following his experience yesterday I don't think he will be very keen to go through that again.
    He lives alone and has no immediate family. Myself and a group of friends help him all we can but we cannot be there 24/7
  • Muttleythefrog
    Muttleythefrog Posts: 19,725
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    pampam wrote: »
    I think he may be entitled to ESA now as what savings he had have down dwindled away due to using them to pay his mortgage etc.
    I was hoping to help him with putting in an ESA claim once we got his PIP sorted out. However, following his experience yesterday I don't think he will be very keen to go through that again.
    He lives alone and has no immediate family. Myself and a group of friends help him all we can but we cannot be there 24/7
    Definitely worth looking into.. may even be able to get help with mortgage. But yes sadly claiming these benefits can be the height of disablement in themselves. ESA has a very similar methodology to PIP... different criteria but very similar process.. the irony of course is that ATOS HC who you saw for PIP.. they used to do all assessments for ESA until eventually the wheels fell off and they pulled out of contract. He's fortunate to have friends around who may be able to assist... it counters to a degree his significant disadvantages in these processes. Claiming these benefits often appears to be simply a game.. a cruel and superficial one... but certainly one that can be won.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
  • lollipopsarah
    lollipopsarah Posts: 1,333
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    job centre plus told me this week tthat I can apply for PIP if i receive DLA, and the nurse at hospital yesterday to Maggi drop in centre for advise (Addenbrooks) and a lovely lady phoned job centre plus on my behalf and advised me that when I eventually get the PIP form to fill in that I should go to the CAB as they can help fill it in properly.
    Good luck and best wishes,
    xx
  • Alice_Holt
    Alice_Holt Posts: 5,921
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    Like the other posters before me, I think your friend should get help to claim ESA (once Income Based ESA has been in payment for 39 weeks he may be able to claim support with Mortgage Interest payments), it may be worth seeing if he can claim Council Tax support from the local council.
    Perhaps you could accompany him to your local CAB / advice agency. Can he get support from MIND or a local advocacy agency?

    If he does need to appeal the PIP decision, then getting in touch with the CAB is sensible.It's possible they may have a benefits specialist who could help with the appeal.

    As an aside - there are grant giving charities for former building tradespeople.
    Lighthouse being one.
    http://www.lighthouseclub.org/
    Alice Holt Forest situated some 4 miles south of Farnham forms the most northerly gateway to the South Downs National Park.
  • pampam wrote: »
    Yesterday I accompanied my friend to his PIP assessment.
    As the assessment was taking place it became obvious that the assessor just wanted Yes or No answers to her questions.

    About 5 minutes into the so called assessment I asked her if she had actually read the PIP form that my friend had completed and also if she had seen the medical evidence provided by GP & Consultants. She said the she didn't have access to that information and that her job was to ask the questions and fill in the answers that my friend gave her??

    I said that I found this to be absolutely ridiculous and asked how on earth someones medical conditions could be assessed in this manner. Her answer to this was a shrug of the shoulders.



    The whole assessment took less than 30 minutes. She "examined" my friends arm movements and shoulders without even asking him to remove his coat!

    Is this a normal state of affairs at an Atos assessment?

    I am 99.9% certain that my friend will now lose his PIP allowance that he was previously awarded in 2015 even though his condition has worsened since the initial reward.

    Some members on this forum will argue that your friend was merely unlucky and that their experience was an exception rather than the norm.

    Given the number of similar posts about allegedly uncaring, and sometimes even rude, HCP's then your friend's unfortunate experience may just be one of many.

    They could complain, but I doubt much will be done about it. You could let your local MP know - that may have more clout.

    Anyhow, even one such experience, if true, is shameful.
  • NeilCr
    NeilCr Posts: 4,430
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    This member of the forum volunteers at an advice agency where we see a lot of PIP applicants. In general, their experiences are good to okay. As evidenced on this forum, of course, they can go wrong - and, on occasions, spectacularly so - for which there really is no excuse - especially with those who are vulnerable and ill

    I do think it is so that people are much more likely to go online (or whatever) to complain as opposed to say that their assessment etc was okay/fine.

    Of course it may be that my area is unduly good and I recognise it is a small sample but it is regular and often so, perhaps, gives a wider perspective. I am not sure how much real life and ongoing experience of the PIP process that someone like Philanthropist actually has

    I agree that, on what the OP has written, it was not a good experience. However, it may yet be that the outcome, itself, will turn out to be the right one. Indeed, on another part of this site, someone has been very surprised with the award they received - they were expecting a real fight

    Otherwise, good advice, as ever, from Alice and from others. Getting to CAB for help with any appeal is a very good idea

    I hope it all works out well for your friend
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