Ditch my fix?

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Hi

I'm currently part-way through a 5-year fix at 3.85%. The fix ends 31st October 2019 - therefore 26 months.

The current ERC is 3%, which drops to 2% in November 2017 and then 1% in November 2018.

I've tried the Ditch Your Fix calculator to check my own working and it looks like I've missed something.

I've assumed I only switch when the ERC is 2% and there are 24 months left. At the time of switching I've assumed my balance is £180600 so my ERC would be £3612.

My current repayment is £1038 a month. I've had a look at current 5-year fixes (which I would switch to) that have typical £1000 fees - which I've put into the calculator. I would have 22 years left on the mortgage too.

Taking a rate of 1.79% results in payments of £845 a month. Therefore a saving of (£1038-£845)*24 = £4632

Ok great, more than the ERC. However add in the fees and the switch is effectively cost neutral.

However the Ditch Your Fix calculator says (for what I believe is the same information) that I should switch to a rate of 2.53% or less. This is including a £1000 fee.

So my question is, why does my calculation suggest a 1.79% rate saves nothing; yet the calculator suggests it would!?

Thanks
Sorry if I've omitted any numbers that would help

Comments

  • getmore4less
    getmore4less Posts: 46,882 Forumite
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    Lower rate even with a lower payment pays off more capital.
  • foofi22
    foofi22 Posts: 2,199 Forumite
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    Thanks, would you care to elaborate?

    Are you saying at the end of the 2 year period when these fixes would "overlap" I should owe less on the lower rate one - i.e. that's where I save money? However what about the ERC which would be added to the new mortgage?

    I should say I'm only comparing over the last 2 years of my current fix.

    Sorry for being dumb!
  • ThePants999
    ThePants999 Posts: 1,748 Forumite
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    You've got to be careful to distinguish between the interest and repayment parts of your mortgage payment. The interest is money you actually pay, it goes away. But capital repayments aren't really payments as such - they're just converting cash into equity. So in terms of working out what wins in the long term, you can't just look at two mortgages and compare the monthly repayment.

    That said, of course, cash flow is important too, and so you may choose to prioritise lower repayments even though you take longer to pay off your mortgage as a result - that's a matter of personal priorities and no guide can tell you what to do.

    You also need to make sure you're comparing two plausible scenarios. You've got one clearly defined - switch in November to a new 5-year fix at 1.79%, paying a £1000 arrangement fee and a £3612 ERC. But what's the alternative you're comparing to? You need to compare like-for-like over the same time period. E.g. if you switched product at the end of your current fix, you'd likely pay a fee then too.

    I've worked up an example that assumes you switch to a 3-year fix at 1.79% at the end of your current term, so both new fixes end at the same point and we can compare over the next 5 years. (I'm assuming you'll get a new product after that point either way, so we can ignore everything that happens after October 2022.) I've assumed that's a fee-free product as well.

    With the "wait" option, you're paying £1038 a month of which between £545-580 is interest for the first couple of years, then dropping to ~£828 payments of which £220-250 is interest thereafter. Over the five years, your total outgoing cash flow is about £54,700, your total interest paid is £22,000 and you have £148,000 left to pay.

    With the "ditch the fix" option, you're paying £845 a month throughout - assuming you've added both product fee and ERC to the mortgage, £225-275 of that is interest. Your total outgoing cash flow over the five years is £50,700, your total interest paid is £15,000 and you have £149,000 left to pay as a result of increasing the mortgage.

    Effectively, then, ditching the fix is better for your cash flow AND saves you £7K in interest, at the cost of £1K reduced equity. Sounds like a win to me - which is no surprise, as by dropping the interest rate by over 2%, you make back the 2% ERC in the first year, and the second is pure win.
  • getmore4less
    getmore4less Posts: 46,882 Forumite
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    The base comparison is simple for two scenario.

    Add the fees make the payments the same and see how much you have left in 2years.

    You are trying to compare doing nothing with paying X(add to debt) and getting a lower rate, pay the same on that and see what's left.

    That will show you how much you save over the period.

    If you want the lower payment do the second with that and it will give a new number won't be quite as good because you pay more interest.

    If you plan on overpayments you need to include those as they reduce any saving you can make.


    If anyone tells you paying the fees upfront will save you money then you need to suspicious of all their advice especially when it is in a comparison situation.

    Payment of fees is just a form of overpayment that always saves money.
  • getmore4less
    getmore4less Posts: 46,882 Forumite
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    The simple test is rate difference over the time.

    180k * (0.0385- 0.0179) * 2 = 7416

    With repayment it will be less but £7k more than enough to cover the costs and leave some left to make real savings, unless a very short term.
  • foofi22
    foofi22 Posts: 2,199 Forumite
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    Thanks both for the fairly detailed analysis.

    Is there another calculator/spreadsheet available for doing this?

    I'll try and digest some of the analysis above but it seems that there's a tradeoff - we can save ~£200 a month compared to current payments but owing slightly more (that's my summary of the above!)

    In case anyone is interested we are nearly 3 years into a 25 year mortgage.
  • ThePants999
    ThePants999 Posts: 1,748 Forumite
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    The base comparison is simple for two scenario.

    Add the fees make the payments the same and see how much you have left in 2years.
    The problem with this approach is that after 2 years, the "ditch" option still has 3 years of fix left, whereas with the alternative option, the OP is then liable for more fees immediately. It doesn't swing it in this particular case, but you'll systematically favour waiting it out if you ignore this.
  • getmore4less
    getmore4less Posts: 46,882 Forumite
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    The problem with this approach is that after 2 years, the "ditch" option still has 3 years of fix left, whereas with the alternative option, the OP is then liable for more fees immediately. It doesn't swing it in this particular case, but you'll systematically favour waiting it out if you ignore this.

    You can add the estimated renewal fees for the next deal(no ERC to get the amount owing at the time if you waited.

    It is rare to get true aligning so you have to use common sense on all the costs.

    Key problem OP had was not accounting for the reduction in debt.

    In some cases you drop to no fee deals anyway(unlikely here with a big mortgage.
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