Putting home into family trust to avoid nursing home fees

Mojisola · 5 May 2012 at 10:48AM

punchyuk wrote: »

Like I have attempted to explain, the house thing was an idea so we can just use the money, if allowed, for topping up the care home fees as opposed to paying for all of it.

My concern is that you don't have any way of ring-fencing the property or the income from it for your mother's future use.

Your life could change over the next 30 years in ways you can't foresee now which could mean that the money had to be spent on yourself.

I would rather keep control of my own finances. If my money has to be spent on a care home, so be it. I would love to leave some to my children but it may not work out that way.

ticktack_2 · 5 May 2012 at 10:49AM

punchyuk wrote: »

Perhaps if you were to read my posts again with an open mind rather than a negative one, you might have realised I am attempting to get what is best for my mother. Had you bothered to read my posts in their entirity before joining the lynch mob then you would of realised that!

I did read your posts, and did take in your references to "topping up" your mother's care etc. But a lot of the posters who want to take over their parent's property claim they only want what's best for their parent, and it's what the parent wants, etc. Well, they would, wouldn't they.

You say, and seem to be convinced, that you're acting in your mother's best interests. But think about it. She has recently acquired a new partner, whose property has recently been "gifted" to his adult child. You think that doesn't put pressure on your mother to do likewise? Meanwhile, her son is engaged to a woman who works in care...

This thread is interesting. Seems to encapsulate a lot of the contest between older people who are struggling to keep hold of their autonomy (and their property!), and the rather different perceptions and concerns of the next generation.

margaretclare · 5 May 2012 at 11:24AM

punchyuk wrote: »

Hi Mojisola,

I am hoping that she will indeed be carrying on enjoying life while her finances permit. Hence the reason about spending some of her savings on just that. The Golf club £800 a year plus extras, she runs a nice car and still travels a bit all these extras.

Isn't it usual to pay for hobbies, sports activities, motoring etc from income and not from savings?

Like I have attempted to explain, the house thing was an idea so we can just use the money, if allowed, for topping up the care home fees as opposed to paying for all of it.
Devious, I realise that, but I am only being honest with you all on here, if not honest with the government.

While I take the point made by others, that it may be a good idea to suss out some care homes to see if you yourself would like to live there, I still think a fit woman who drives and plays a sport on a regular basis should not be thought of as being in need of a care home just yet. Even if she ends up being one of the minority who ultimately does need such a placement.

I apologise for my comment about the female solicitor. I did not intend any denigration of her gender - I am the last person to do such a thing. I am not convinced, however, from what I've heard in other quarters, that she has got this right.

I end with a quote from the female solicitor who handled my DH's last divorce: 'You only have to come and sit in this chair for a while at my desk and you'll see the very worst in human nature. Loving family members turn into ravening wolves when the mention of money, inheritance, rears its head'.

margaretclare · 5 May 2012 at 11:47AM

About care homes, I can speak a bit about these from experience. In what I've come to call the 'black years' of my life, between widowhood and redundancy in 1992 and meeting DH in 1997, I did a lot of agency work doing shifts in some of these. I didn't want to, but my priority was in paying the mortgage and keeping a roof over my head.

From the point of view of the resident, you are just not free. That's the worst of it. You have left your freedom at the front door. You have no choice as to when you get up, when you go to bed, when you have meals and what you're given to eat at those meals. You either stay in your own room all the time or you sit in a communal lounge with TV on all the time. You don't have a choice over what to watch on TV - it's treated as 'babysitting'.

Many times doing night shifts I asked the question of others who were on duty 'Why do we have to start getting them up so early?' Usually, at 5 am we would go round and start dragging residents out of bed, even if they were sound asleep, giving them a quick lick with a damp flannel, dressing them while they were sitting on a commode and then wheeling them out to the dining-area to sit in a wheelchair in front of the TV until breakfast. Often they would grumble and object: 'Oh, Ada/Ivy/Mabel is in a bad mood today'. I said that I wouldn't want to be dragged out of bed at an ungodly hour either, after a lifetime of having to get up early and out of the house to go to work. I was told 'We have to get a certain number of them up before the day staff come on, if we don't the day staff will grumble'. This was true - in another home I was ticked off for 'not getting enough of them up'. The care assistant who told me this said he used to pick people up bodily out of bed and do all this. He was half my age and twice my size, a bit like an all-in wrestler and he expected me to do likewise!

At the other end of the day, it was usual to start putting people to bed in the early evening, after the last meal of the day which was about 5 pm.

There used to be a woman who came to our church from one of these care homes, obviously she was brought by a relative and could go out with her family. She always used to leave before the last hymn. I asked why this was: 'oh Sunday dinner is at midday and if she doesn't get back then she wouldn't get anything to eat'. I've also been in care homes where there was a 'mission statement' framed and hanging on the wall in the foyer: 'This is our residents' home and they can do exactly as they would do in their own home'. Really? When meal-times, bedtimes, getting-up times and everything else is decided for them?

You can see that I personally - although possibly reaching the age at which I might be 'dribbling into my tea' - have not made any provision for this fate-worse-than-death for myself.

Val75 · 5 May 2012 at 12:00PM

Just had a talk from a law firm at our over fifties club, re tenants in common,apparently as someone has already said on here only half the house can be taken , we have one son, we thought we could put him on tenants in common ie we would be one third each.

That seemed not possible??

The other is Transfer of Equity, sons name on deeds?? or a Trust which on here seems not a good idea.

We were told this would mean no nursing home fees.

Also, the most popular reason for care homes is Alzheimers.
We have heard different opinions on this, ie you do not pay, the chap at the club said you do??

I fully agree with all those that say we have worked hard all our lives, paid our taxes, just have the old age pension, and small company pension which we also paid into, which takes us just over any help we could get, but still very small income, own our own home, worked for it , and the scroungers get it all for nothing.,

Seems so unfair.

ticktack_2 · 5 May 2012 at 12:09PM

margaretclare wrote: »

About care homes, I can speak a bit about these from experience. In what I've come to call the 'black years' of my life, between widowhood and redundancy in 1992 and meeting DH in 1997, I did a lot of agency work doing shifts in some of these. I didn't want to, but my priority was in paying the mortgage and keeping a roof over my head.

From the point of view of the resident, you are just not free. That's the worst of it. You have left your freedom at the front door. You have no choice as to when you get up, when you go to bed, when you have meals and what you're given to eat at those meals. You either stay in your own room all the time or you sit in a communal lounge with TV on all the time. You don't have a choice over what to watch on TV - it's treated as 'babysitting'.

Many times doing night shifts I asked the question of others who were on duty 'Why do we have to start getting them up so early?' Usually, at 5 am we would go round and start dragging residents out of bed, even if they were sound asleep, giving them a quick lick with a damp flannel, dressing them while they were sitting on a commode and then wheeling them out to the dining-area to sit in a wheelchair in front of the TV until breakfast. Often they would grumble and object: 'Oh, Ada/Ivy/Mabel is in a bad mood today'. I said that I wouldn't want to be dragged out of bed at an ungodly hour either, after a lifetime of having to get up early and out of the house to go to work. I was told 'We have to get a certain number of them up before the day staff come on, if we don't the day staff will grumble'. This was true - in another home I was ticked off for 'not getting enough of them up'. The care assistant who told me this said he used to pick people up bodily out of bed and do all this. He was half my age and twice my size, a bit like an all-in wrestler and he expected me to do likewise!

At the other end of the day, it was usual to start putting people to bed in the early evening, after the last meal of the day which was about 5 pm.

There used to be a woman who came to our church from one of these care homes, obviously she was brought by a relative and could go out with her family. She always used to leave before the last hymn. I asked why this was: 'oh Sunday dinner is at midday and if she doesn't get back then she wouldn't get anything to eat'. I've also been in care homes where there was a 'mission statement' framed and hanging on the wall in the foyer: 'This is our residents' home and they can do exactly as they would do in their own home'. Really? When meal-times, bedtimes, getting-up times and everything else is decided for them?

You can see that I personally - although possibly reaching the age at which I might be 'dribbling into my tea' - have not made any provision for this fate-worse-than-death for myself.

Thanks very much for this post. I wish it could be made into a Sticky.

margaretclare · 5 May 2012 at 12:38PM

Also, the most popular reason for care homes is Alzheimers.
We have heard different opinions on this, ie you do not pay, the chap at the club said you do??

This is because there is no agreement, as yet, as to whether Alzheimer's is an illness which needs to come under the NHS umbrella, or whether it is simply something that can be categorised as 'old age' and therefore coming under the 'care' umbrella dealt with by Social Services.

I think this argument will go on for a long time. Alzheimer's does affect mainly older people and yet it does not affect all of them and in some instances it affects younger people too. Many things which affect older people are treatable and therefore they are not categorised in the same way as Alzheimer's.

If a person becomes 'a danger to herself and/or other people' then a section under the Mental Health Acts comes into play, and in such a case admission to an Elderly Mental Illness home is appropriate. In such a case, the NHS mechanism takes over because there is a 'mental health' diagnosis.

Errata · 5 May 2012 at 12:40PM

MC your experience is only that, your experience. Mine is very different to yours, and I would hate those reading this thread to feel that all care homes are like the ones you describe. They are not.

Val75 · 5 May 2012 at 12:48PM

Is there any free advice that anyone knows of of what is the best thing to do to protect our property? I am wondering about Age Concern.
Although I think this is not the right place, we are downloading forms for Power of Attorney whilst we are still thinking straight, 81 and 76!!

margaretclare · 5 May 2012 at 1:09PM

Errata wrote: »

MC your experience is only that, your experience. Mine is very different to yours, and I would hate those reading this thread to feel that all care homes are like the ones you describe. They are not.

Well, the ones I described were a fair sample of those locally. Obviously they were not 'every' care home in the land, but they were certainly a few.

Putting home into family trust to avoid nursing home fees

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