30 kW Nissan Leaf
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Lithium Ion batteries, as used in electric cars, don't build up a memory as such, but they do degrade with use, yes. It's not the big issue you describe though, as in real use, across hundreds of thousands of miles, the degradation is fastest at the start, then tails off.The big issue for me with the leaf and other EVs is the dying battery problem. Batteries build up a memory, after a whiled they won't fully charge. This can be made worse by the manner in which the battery is used, lots of rapid charging or partial charges.
I wouldn't buy an EV only to have to face a huge bill in the 1000's to replace a dead battery pack. I wouldn't buy one secondhand for the same reason, and I suspect it must affect their residual value.
Rapid charging - yes, charging fast is supposed to be hard on the battery, and they're also not happy being full or empty, better being in between. Nissan even provided the Leaf with a mode that would only allow it to charge to 80% for this reason. Renault didn't bother. This tells me that the issues above really aren't as bad as you make out.
For info, Renault promise to change your battery when it gets down to 75 of original capacity. Thing is, it just hasn't happened.
The Zoe only has 1 socket - Type 2, and it's AC. Some can charge at 43kW and some (mine) can charge at 22kW. You'll get a 7kWh socket for at home if you can take the installation - that's faster than you'll be charging a Leaf at home (6kW tops as an optional extra I think).0 -
My understanding is that Nissan will repair/replace a battery pack if it loses a certain amount of capacity, up to 5 years for the 24kWh and 8 years for the 30kWh. I have not checked other manufacturers yet.
They will but as always there is a catch.
They all work on a similar system to the BMW system which is
When you take your car in for its annual check up they measure the battery capacity. If the battery capacity is below 70% then they will replace it for you (Heres the catch) They will only pay for the % between what it is and 70%.
So if you get in and find your battery is 67% they will replace it and you get back 3% of the total cost. What a bargain.
So beware the battery warranties and read the small print.
At least with BMW when the 60Ah battery finally dies (They predict 8 years or 100000 miles on electric for it to get to 70% capacity)., They will replace it with the latest capacity battery (Currently 94Ah expected to be 120Ah next year). As they are keeping them the same size and shape while the car remains in production. Not sure how Nissan/Renault Handle it unless you have the battery lease option.Over 100k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,0 -
Renault will replace if it falls below 75% - not necessarily with a brand new one though. Thing is, it just hasn't happened! A new Zoe has just been announced with a 41kWh battery, to be sold alongside the existing 22kWh battery - It's the same shape, and the existing cars can be upgraded. The small matter of the cost of this upgrade will be announced later in the year.As they are keeping them the same size and shape while the car remains in production. Not sure how Nissan/Renault Handle it unless you have the battery lease option.0 -
Renault will replace if it falls below 75% - not necessarily with a brand new one though. Thing is, it just hasn't happened! A new Zoe has just been announced with a 41kWh battery, to be sold alongside the existing 22kWh battery - It's the same shape, and the existing cars can be upgraded. The small matter of the cost of this upgrade will be announced later in the year.
When they replaced the battery pack on my Zoe earlier this year, the list price quoted for parts (done under warranty though) was almost 5K.0 -
Blimey! I'm just thinking of how much unleaded you could buy for £5k.BeenThroughItAll wrote: »When they replaced the battery pack on my Zoe earlier this year, the list price quoted for parts (done under warranty though) was almost 5K.
Nearly 30k miles in my Merc.If someone is nice to you but rude to the waiter, they are not a nice person.0 -
Blimey! I'm just thinking of how much unleaded you could buy for £5k.
Nearly 30k miles in my Merc.
Yes, but how likely is it that you'll need to replace a battery pack? 50k+ miles on our Leaf, no noticeable battery degradation yet.
You much would it cost to replace the engine in your Merc?0 -
Well, the battery packs have a limited lifespan, so they will need replacing at some point. An IC engine should last the life of the car with proper maintenance. So the two are not directly comparable.Yes, but how likely is it that you'll need to replace a battery pack? 50k+ miles on our Leaf, no noticeable battery degradation yet.
You much would it cost to replace the engine in your Merc?
I was half-joking, though, as I am sure you knew. But the huge cost of replacement batteries is a not insignificant reason why people are wary of buying these cars second-hand. It's the same with electric bikes (I have one). Quite expensive new, but, at two years old, worth buttons because everyone knows that to replace the battery - inevitable eventually - will cost as much as the bike is worth.If someone is nice to you but rude to the waiter, they are not a nice person.0 -
Well, the battery packs have a limited lifespan, so they will need replacing at some point. An IC engine should last the life of the car with proper maintenance. So the two are not directly comparable.
I was half-joking, though, as I am sure you knew. But the huge cost of replacement batteries is a not insignificant reason why people are wary of buying these cars second-hand. It's the same with electric bikes (I have one). Quite expensive new, but, at two years old, worth buttons because everyone knows that to replace the battery - inevitable eventually - will cost as much as the bike is worth.
It will be interesting to see how long the batteries generally last. And of course it's not like they completely fail, just have a lower range. So even a car with a 50% battery is still viable for at least some people (ie those who only do short-ish trips).
Also, given that the maintenance of a petrol/diesel engine is not cost free, whereas the maintenance cost on the battery of an EV is essentially zero (as you can't really do any as far as I know!), I wonder how the lifetime costs stack up against each other.0 -
An IC engine should last the life of the car with proper maintenance. So the two are not directly comparable.
They are though. I've been saying all through this thread that the worry over the batteries has been mostly unfounded, and that it's not as much a problem as had been thought in the real world. I think it's safe to say (early days yet!) that a battery will last the life of an electric car, in the same way as an engine will last the life of a petrol or diesel car.
Think of the economics - £5k to replace a battery, say. How much to replace an engine - at a dealers, remember, because that £5k is a dealer price for a (brand new?) battery.
If the price is too high, the life of the car is over and it'll be scrapped, whether that's due to the engine, or the battery failing, it'll simply be uneconomical to repair. So it depends on what you define as 'life'. There's a taxi company in England with at least 1 Leaf in their fleet with 200,000 miles on it, on all the original drivetrain - that's more miles than most cars cover.0 -
They are though. I've been saying all through this thread that the worry over the batteries has been mostly unfounded, and that it's not as much a problem as had been thought in the real world. I think it's safe to say (early days yet!) that a battery will last the life of an electric car, in the same way as an engine will last the life of a petrol or diesel car.
Think of the economics - £5k to replace a battery, say. How much to replace an engine - at a dealers, remember, because that £5k is a dealer price for a (brand new?) battery.
If the price is too high, the life of the car is over and it'll be scrapped, whether that's due to the engine, or the battery failing, it'll simply be uneconomical to repair. So it depends on what you define as 'life'. There's a taxi company in England with at least 1 Leaf in their fleet with 200,000 miles on it, on all the original drivetrain - that's more miles than most cars cover.
It was indeed.
Added to the charging system control unit, motor, inverter charger, wiring loom and sundries, it'd have been a lot cheaper for them to give me a replacement vehicle, but they refused and I ended up rejecting the car after almost a year, during which I drove courtesy cars, with all fuel paid for, almost 12K miles.
Also made sure I'd never set foot in a Renault dealership again, nor buy a Renault product (and it's my mission to put as many other people off Renault products as I can).0
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