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Historic Council Tax Issue

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  • 00ec25
    00ec25 Posts: 9,123 Forumite
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    edited 13 September 2017 at 4:00PM
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    and I'll add one more

    Fact - your friend lived as a single household with 3 other people on a joint tenancy. The law therefore not unreasonably sees them as "one", not as four individuals.

    The reality that 4 adults did not manage their financial affairs between themselves so that shared bills were genuinely shared and paid is neither the fault of the council nor an unfair outcome of the law. Thus the council acts in the most efficient and cost effective manner by chasing the "one" that it has found.
  • konark
    konark Posts: 1,260 Forumite
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    It is to avoid situations like this that in a HMO the landlord is usually responsible for the council tax,; having 4 strangers each responsible for a quarter each is simply a recipe for disaster. If each pays direct to the council and one stops paying (and you wouldn't know that till it was too late) the others are liable for their share.
  • CIS
    CIS Posts: 12,260 Forumite
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    konark wrote: »
    It is to avoid situations like this that in a HMO the landlord is usually responsible for the council tax,; having 4 strangers each responsible for a quarter each is simply a recipe for disaster. If each pays direct to the council and one stops paying (and you wouldn't know that till it was too late) the others are liable for their share.

    If it's a council tax HMO then landlord is always liable - it certainly makes collection much easier in those cases.
    having 4 strangers each responsible for a quarter each is simply a recipe for disaster. If each pays direct to the council and one stops paying (and you wouldn't know that till it was too late) the others are liable for their share
    It can go badly wrong where tenants try to apportion the charge amongst themselves, I've seen some messy situations left by it. This is one of the reasons why joint liability occurs, to try and minimise the collection issues for the council.

    Craig
    I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery but instead work as a specialist Council Tax paralegal assisting landlords and Council Tax payers with council tax disputes and valuation tribunals. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.
  • decbel
    decbel Posts: 2,804 Forumite
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    davidmcn wrote: »
    And I don't think we know that the council hasn't also contacted the others.

    I'd certainly be asking.

    Whether I'd get anywhere is a different matter.
  • Irish_lad80
    Irish_lad80 Posts: 27 Forumite
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    Slithery wrote: »
    Your getting too hung up on arguing all of the little details that don't matter at all to this case.

    Fact - Your friend has joint and several responsibility for the entire bill.

    Fact - They've found your friend so are legally pursuing her for all outstanding costs.

    Fact - She either has to pay up now or the debt will be recovered from her wages.

    Whether this is 'fair' or not is irrelevant, the legal position is clear.
    To paraphrase a common quote "Devil is in the little details". Or as she is renting she moves house again and hope they find one of the other poor sods first! Not suggesting she do that, but it is a third option.
  • Irish_lad80
    Irish_lad80 Posts: 27 Forumite
    edited 14 September 2017 at 10:01AM
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    00ec25 wrote: »
    and I'll add one more

    Fact - your friend lived as a single household with 3 other people on a joint tenancy. The law therefore not unreasonably sees them as "one", not as four individuals.

    The reality that 4 adults did not manage their financial affairs between themselves so that shared bills were genuinely shared and paid is neither the fault of the council nor an unfair outcome of the law. Thus the council acts in the most efficient and cost effective manner by chasing the "one" that it has found.
    4 adults were listed on the on the letters unlike a gas bill for example where one person is normally listed and others reimburse them. To me that is the main difference and hence why I asked the questions in the first place.
    There may well not be an alternative but to pay the full outstanding liability for the house. However there is no harm in asking for advice. The council are aware that there are 4 people listed but they have chosen the easy target. Laws are often there to ensure fairness. To most people I think the soft target being bullied into paying a 10 year old bill because the council don't want to chase the others listed on the statement is hardly fairness. But then as another phrase goes common sense is not very common.


    Also she didn't know that there was a shortfall in the amount owing until this Sunday. So to her knowledge the financial affairs where being managed correctly, she received no letters to say otherwise.
  • Irish_lad80
    Irish_lad80 Posts: 27 Forumite
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    CIS wrote: »
    If it's a council tax HMO then landlord is always liable - it certainly makes collection much easier in those cases.

    It can go badly wrong where tenants try to apportion the charge amongst themselves, I've seen some messy situations left by it. This is one of the reasons why joint liability occurs, to try and minimise the collection issues for the council.

    Craig


    Maybe that should become law, all houses rented out with more than one bedroom are to be classified as HMO, would make it cleaner for all involved and rent would increase by the amount of tax, put a little hassle on the Landlord but no extra financial stress.
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    Irish_lad80 wrote: »
    4 adults were listed on the on the letters unlike a gas bill for example where one person is normally listed and others reimburse them. To me that is the main difference and hence why I asked the questions in the first place.
    There may well not be an alternative but to pay the full outstanding liability for the house.
    Four people are listed, because four people are listed on the electoral roll for the property. All of those people are jointly and severally liable for the entire bill. How, or even whether, they apportion the bill between them is not the local authority's problem.
  • molerat
    molerat Posts: 31,855 Forumite
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    Irish_lad80 wrote: »
    Maybe that should become law, all houses rented out with more than one bedroom are to be classified as HMO, would make it cleaner for all involved and rent would increase by the amount of tax, put a little hassle on the Landlord but no extra financial stress.
    And when the tenants fail to pay the rent and do a runner the LL gets stiffed for the council tax as well ;)
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189 Forumite
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    Irish_lad80 wrote: »
    Maybe that should become law, all houses rented out with more than one bedroom are to be classified as HMO
    ...?

    Seriously?

    A two-bed flat rented out to a single tenant... should be an HMO? That makes a mockery of the whole point of flagging genuine HMOs.
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