Railways, Tramways, Busways, Driverless Vehicles

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  • flicks
    flicks Posts: 199 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post
    Yes we as humans are certainly fallable but as they say to really mess things up takes a computer.

    If we mess things up we get punished. A bad enough mistake can lead to criminal charges so we do try and get it right and we do most of the time.

    Despite your obvious dislike of the railway my original argument still stands that i need to keep my job to avoid losing my house and having to claim from the benefits system which hard working, perfect people like yourself pay your taxes to support.
  • flicks
    flicks Posts: 199 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post
    I don't believe i said that pennywise. Do we benefit from automation? Everything made by robots, all quality gone, computers taking decisions for people. We use automation because in many cases we have no choice not because we necessarily want to. Please do not make assumptions about me unless you know me.
  • The issue of lost jobs comes up time and time again in the context of new technologies, but it usually vanishes without trace.

    I suggested before that railway branch lines could potentially be uprooted in order to provide a test-bed for driverless buses (it surely wouldn’t be too complicated to add an overall vehicle control system to the present design and construction of guided buses and busways). It occurs to me now that HS2, if it ever gets built, could provide a perfect test-bed for driverless high-speed trains. In fact, it would probably be possible to make an argument in favour of the idea of using HS2 primarily as such a test-bed, with the hotly-disputed economic benefits taking second place.

    I think there is a difference between driverless vehicles and automated transport systems. The idea of driverless cars seems to be that the vehicle itself will contain everything it needs (sensors and computers) in order to ensure its own safe passage, whereas the vehicles in an automated transport system are controlled from a central computer, which has prior ‘knowledge’ of all other system priorities.

    I believe that Milton Keynes is about to start experimenting with ‘driverless pods’ between the station and the city centre, but I have no clue how the experiment will be organised, or whether the pods will somehow be kept apart from cyclists, pedestrians, buses and cars. I believe that the original plans for Milton Keynes (50 years ago?) included a ‘monorail’ alongside every grid road, but it never happened.

    I think that the development of driverless vehicles belongs in the realm of Artificial Intelligence, whereas the technology for automated transport systems already exists.
    mad mocs - the pavement worrier
  • flicks
    flicks Posts: 199 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post
    Modsandmockers i won't bother to take you up on your main points as we clearly have our own views. I will comment on the point about talk of job losses vanishing without trace. Yes they do mainly because of what pennywise calls Nimbyism. Nobody will stand up for anybody else in this country or indeed most of the world today. So a few hundred people are going to lose their jobs through automation but the majority of us are alright Jack so we shall let it go. The few hundred affected have no real voice so it will banish without trace. I guess in time each and every one of us will be banished to unemployment due to our jobs becoming automated as it's inevitable. Let's not rush it along though eh?
  • flicks wrote: »
    Let's not rush it along though eh?

    Flicks, luckily for train drivers, we have in my opinion the last strong union. They will slow down this rush to protect it`s members, they haven't done to bad a job with uncle boris` plans for the underground.

    Unfortunately train drivers are pricing themselves out of a job, as their wages increase the option of automation will become the cheaper system for train companies to consider.

    I can`t see us been replaced within then next 25 yrs, however, if we are then we will become "operators" due to safety concerns and the public wanting somebody to save the day when the automatic system fails at 125 mph, a bit like airline pilots.
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  • esuhl
    esuhl Posts: 9,409 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    It's all a question of perspective. The Industrial Revolution was a terrible time for many, but despite the unemployment that initially occurred, our country became one of the richest in the world, with (nowadays) a dramatic improvement in quality of life for everyone.

    I don't mean to trivialise how awful it must have been, but can we now wish that it had never happened, and that any kind of automated machine (looms, printing presses, cars) had been banned ever since...? Would we be better off banning any kind of industrial machinery nowadays...?

    It's hard to know how the "Technology Revolution" will affect us now and in the years-to-come overall, but I think it's a mistake to see any kind of automated process as inherently bad because it puts people out of work. The most important thing is that people are helped and opportunities are created to ensure that we maintain high employment rates overall.
  • Technology can also make a major contribution to safety. Trains and boats and planes are largely managed by external control systems, even though it is still possible for an individual ‘driver’ to ignore instructions and cause chaos. The least safe transport solution is the public highway, and the people who use it are the least trained, and the least supervised. Truck drivers and bus drivers earn hugely less than train drivers, airline pilots and ferry skippers. Truck and bus drivers also (mostly) have to finance their own licence renewals, as well as their speeding fines and other employer-induced infringements of the highway and tachograph regulations.

    When I was driving trucks, I really felt a need for some kind of automated system which would restrict my speed to the legal limit of 40mph on single carriageways. Most truck-owners will not allow speed limits as a good excuse for a late delivery.
    mad mocs - the pavement worrier
  • flicks
    flicks Posts: 199 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post
    edited 25 January 2015 at 5:16PM
    Modsandmockers i can agree with some of what you are saying there although there has been an unfortunate spell of aircraft and shipping disasters recently. Whether these have been caused by operator error or automatic systems i do not know.

    I also agree that we train drivers are paid more than bus drivers and truck drivers and why there is this inequality i don't know. I guess a good union goes a long way but nobody can be blamed for taking the money when it's offered. I would be a pro footballer if i was good enough.

    Do i assume from your comments that trucks aren't fitted with cruise control?
  • Modern trucks, like many modern cars, do indeed have cruise control and also speed limiters, but they only work if the driver chooses to use them. Some modern fleets are closely tracked and monitored by their owners, and if ever you get stuck behind an HGV doing exactly 40mph over a lengthy stretch of single carriageway, then it will almost certainly belong to such a fleet (it'll probably be Tesco!). But parcels delivery and general haulage is a cut-throat business, and next-day deliveries etc are frequently made possible only because many van and truck owners and drivers are able and willing to ignore any regulation which will cost them time, and to abuse any other road user who is in their way. Of course, this also applies to other groups of road-user as well....

    Speed limiters are operated electronically, and it ought to be possible for speed limit signs to incorporate a device which would remotely activate a vehicle's speed limiter to suit the speed limit at the time. In an emergency, speed limiters are instantly switched off if the driver kicks down the gas pedal, and if the driver was required to submit a formal explanation every time the speed limiter was de-activated, then it would probably hardly ever happen.

    Intelligent cars are probably light years away, but there are lots of ways in which trains and boats and planes are subject to very close external supervision, much of which is automated or semi-automated. That's why it would be safer for everybody, on lightly-used rural branch lines with slow-moving 'trains' driven and managed by well-trained and highly-accountable individuals, for road-users not to be expected to wait for minutes at a time at level crossings, when they know full well that the 'train' they are waiting for is currently stationary at a nearby station.
    mad mocs - the pavement worrier
  • RichardD1970
    RichardD1970 Posts: 3,795 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    I don’t get out much these days

    You don't say.
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