Can husband and wife both claim ESA?

24

Comments

  • Alice_Holt
    Alice_Holt Posts: 5,902
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Forumite
    Re the SDP.

    "If you are in a couple you can receive the severe disability premium if:
    you both receive a qualifying disability benefit (i.e DL component of PIP); and
    you have no non-dependant adults living with you (unless they are also receiving a qualifying disability benefit or are registered blind)
    Where both members of a couple receive a qualifying disability benefit you will receive a couple's rate of SDP if no-one receives payments of Carer's Allowance (CA) for looking after either of you."

    See - http://www.entitledto.co.uk/help/severe-disability-premium

    Couple rate of SDP is £125pw.

    Please go to your CAB to check if:
    - you can open a claim for SDP at the couple rate. and how
    - you can close your current CA claim.
    Alice Holt Forest situated some 4 miles south of Farnham forms the most northerly gateway to the South Downs National Park.
  • Cyclamen
    Cyclamen Posts: 641
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    Forumite
    edited 16 July 2017 at 9:02AM
    Thanks

    I agree and we will go to CAB its just tricky with my health and have a few hospital/GP appointments to get through first.

    We claimed IS because the turn2us webiste linked from .gov.uk told us that was what was best. We didn't know Universal credit was due to start the next day.

    I don't get any of the disability premiums as I am on contributions based ESA.

    I assume as UC is now here we are too late for the old ESA premiums.

    At the moment it was health first, hence closing the business and then sort money out. I am a little OK a lot overwhelmed by this.. but lots to work with here.

    Thank you ..I do appreciate the help.

    I will try an dget in touch with CAB via email asap.


    EDIT: our posts crossed.. I really do need help with this from CAB. Hadnt thought carers could be swapped for anything.
    There is quite a lot of pride as well as ill health getting in the way here.
  • epitome
    epitome Posts: 3,199 Forumite
    edited 16 July 2017 at 9:47AM
    Ok let me see if I can clarify a few benefit amounts to see where we are and where we might be.

    Your Current ESA C = £109.65
    His Carers Allowance = £62.70
    Your PIP DL = Enhanced
    His PIP DL = Standard

    His Income Support currently should be
    £114.85 (couple personal allowance)
    £34.95 (carer premium)
    £62.45 (severe disability premium couple lower rate - for him)
    £22.85 (enhanced disability premium couple)
    £46.40 (disability premium couple)
    £281.50 (sub total)
    -£62.70
    -£109.65
    £109.15 TOTAL

    So that is where you both should be right now. Ignoring PIPs as they make no difference,
    You get £109.65
    He gets £62.70 + £109.15 = £171.85
    TOTAL both of you = £281.50

    ***********************************************************
    Now the only thing that can change at this stage is if he closes or withdraws his Income Support claim (because you can't do an ESA3 unless he closes IS) and (he -as far as I know- can't claim ESA C unless he closes Income Support)

    If he closes IS...**and you are allowed to do ESA3** <<this bit is important, you may not be allowed to do an ESA IR claim. You will be sent an ESA3 when you tell ESA, but what they do with the ESA3 when they receive it back is what matters.

    Your ESA would be:
    £114.85 (couple personal allowance)
    £36.55 (support group)
    £22.85 (enhanced disability premim)
    £62.45 (severe disability premium)
    £34.95 (carer premium)
    -£62.70 (carers allowance)
    £208.95 TOTAL


    You would get £208.95
    He would get £62.70
    Total both of you £271.65

    So far, Income Support is winning. Now let's see what happens when he claims ESA C.

    His potential ESA C NS = £73.10 (for 1 year) (There is no WRAG amount anymore on new claims from April 2017)

    Your ESA would be:
    £114.85 (couple personal allowance)
    £36.55 (support group)
    £22.85 (enhanced disability premim couple)
    £124.90 (severe disability premium couple higher rate)
    £34.95 (carer premium)
    -£73.10 (his ESA)
    £261.00 TOTAL


    He would get ESA C £73.10 (his Carer's allowance would stay open but CA payment would stop - underlying entitlement)

    Total both of you = £261.00 + £73.10 = £334.10

    As I thought, if you did it this way it beats Income Support by a long way. But you only get this for 1 year then he would go back to Income Support & Carers Allowance to get a total of £281 between you. (EDIT: sorry he would not be allowed to go back to IS due to UCFSA, instead you would stay on ESA IR and he would be ESA C nil rate, total £271.65).

    Purely on contributory benefits you get £109.55,
    He gets £73.10
    Total = £182.75 so Income Support is better than this. so you need to be careful before closing IS.

    My questions are:
    What date did he stop working?

    What date did he claim IS from?

    How much is yours & his Pension? Gross amount and net amount. (your pension will affect the above amounts but the ranking results could still be the same or similar)
  • Alice_Holt
    Alice_Holt Posts: 5,902
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
    Forumite
    edited 16 July 2017 at 9:21AM
    That's very impressive.
    It would take me hours to do such a comprehensive better off calc without the use of a benefits calculator!
    Alice Holt Forest situated some 4 miles south of Farnham forms the most northerly gateway to the South Downs National Park.
  • epitome
    epitome Posts: 3,199 Forumite
    edited 16 July 2017 at 1:21PM
    Alice_Holt wrote: »
    Go to your CAB for advice.

    Claiming IS will not maximise your income (see post 6).

    Your husband is better to claim "new style ESA" i.e. CB based. He needs a fit note from his GP to do so.
    You can't gaurantee that, because they are in UCFSA they may not be allowed to change to ESA IR now, as it may be treated as a UC claim.
    On legacy benefits because both of you are in receipt of PIP Daily Living you both may be entitled to the £62pw Severe Disability Premium.
    However, under UC these disability premiums are not payable. Disabled couples are considerably worse off under UC.
    http://www.poverty.ac.uk/sabled-peoedit
    This cannot be done on Income Support.
    And ESA IR may not be allowed, it might migrate to UC.
    This is only possible on ESA IR if they process the ESA3 at the ESA Benefit Centre.
  • epitome
    epitome Posts: 3,199 Forumite
    Essentially OP, it is a gamble,

    Stay on IS and get what you get now.
    or
    close IS, claim ESA C (him) and ESA IR (you)
    If they allow the ESA IR you will be much better off
    If they don't allow the ESA IR you will be more than likely worse off, possibly much worse. Ask someone to do a UC calculation for you (I don't do those).

    You could phone your ESA ask for a callback from your ESA BC and ask them if I send in an ESA3 would you process it there for ESA IR or pass it on to UC? Even then you can't gaurantee they know what they are talking about.

    It may be that your ESA BC is not in the habit of passing on ESA3 to UC, or it may be that they are.
  • Cyclamen
    Cyclamen Posts: 641
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    Forumite
    edited 16 July 2017 at 1:41PM
    Crikey... that's blown me away.. thank you so very much.

    My pension is £69 and pennies a week or £300.12 pcm. He doesn't have a pension.
    Business closed from 11th..thats when he phoned hmrc, wtc and stopped actively doing work. UC in this area apparently started on the 12th so the Income support people sent him to job centre appointment same day to start claim.

    ESA Income based.. I was checked for this a few months ago and was inelligble.. is this something that would change?

    I assume my pension would be subtracted from the income support amount in the first example? So £109-69 = £40 of Income support.


    EDIT : Just been through ESA criteria.. he wouldn't qualify on points. Although working would harm his physical health it would be a battle to evidence this. He's in that tricky spot too poorly to work (otherwise he would still be working) and to well for ESA according to the dwp.
  • epitome
    epitome Posts: 3,199 Forumite
    Are we talking 11th July 2017? This could be seen as good news, but I'm not guaranteeing anything, it's your benefit, your risk.
    Also
    ESA Income based.. I was checked for this a few months ago and was inelligble.
    could also be potentially good news.

    Essentially within an UCSFA, *ANY* change of circumstances can lead to your existing claim being converted to a UC claim. Things like:
    Change of address requiring Housing Benefit for rent
    Requesting ESA IR to be added to an existing ESA C claim
    Change of circumstances on an existing ESA IR claim, adding/removing partner etc. The good news is that this roll out of UC is confusing a lot of Benefit staff and they don't all do what they are supposed to do and they may have decided to hold off on referring to UC in certain circumstances where it is not absolutley necessary.

    Regarding the Income Support claim
    If it is the 11/07/17 it should be very easy to call Income Support on 0345 608 8545, say NOTHING to the computer when it asks you to say why you are calling, then choose the Income Support option from the numbers 1 2 3 4 5
    When you get through to Income Support tell them "I made a claim on xx/07/2017" and the method of making the claim i,e, filled in a form at jobcentre or whatever... and I do not want that claim to be processed, I am going to be put on my partners ESA claim.


    Regarding
    ESA Income based.. I was checked for this a few months ago and was inelligble.
    Were you sent an ESA3, did you complete it and return it, and then did ESA say your benefit will remain the same?
    OR
    Did you just have a conversation someone who told you there's no point applying for ESA IR you would get nothing as your partner is working Full time?

    If it is the latter then your ESA claim should already be holding the information that you have a partner who is working full time, and they should have asked you for evidence wage slips, pension statement etc, and so you already have an ESA IR claim which is being nilled by wages & pension. The good news here is that if this is the case:
    A) Income Support will not be processed
    B) It is very unlikely that removing your partners employment would result in a transfer to UC (very very unlikely, extremely unlikely).
    C) He can claim ESA CNS
    To find out... you should phone ESA on Monday and ask them on your claim.. * Is my claim ESA C or ESA IR?
    * What is the amount showing underneath ESA IR on my claim? and underneath ESA C (on page JA504 if they wonder what you mean).

    If your claim says this:
    ESA C...................................ESA IR
    109.65...................................
    You have no ESA IR at all and would need to do an ESA3 or insist that they process the ESA3 you sent a few weeks ago and add it to your claim.

    If your claim says this:
    ESA C...................................ESA IR
    109.65...................................35.00
    You have established an award of ESA IR and Income Support should not processed until you have agreed to your ESA being changed.

    If your claim says this:
    ESA C...................................ESA IR
    109.65...................................0.00
    You have established an award of ESA IR and Income Support should not processed until you have agreed to your ESA being changed.

    I now have your pension amount £69 but it would be better to know the gross/net, however I will adjust those claim amounts in the post below.
  • Cyclamen
    Cyclamen Posts: 641
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Combo Breaker
    Forumite
    epitome

    Thank you.. not an easy day today and your kindness and amount fo work you are putting in is over whelming.
    I don't get taxed..but my pension statements are in a heavy folder and today that is beyond me.

    I feel I am wasting your time as I don't think he'd get passed the assessment phase of ESA. Even though he's poorly.

    I am not certain of the code on the ESA form I did but it did ask about all the financial details rather than health stuff. My statement says I would be entitled to about £28 or income related but because contributions is more I will get that.. Again its in that folder and beyond me today.

    I am going to 'give it my best shot' at getting to CAB tmrw.. each time I do a benefits checker its coming out differently.
  • epitome
    epitome Posts: 3,199 Forumite
    edited 16 July 2017 at 2:42PM
    Assuming £69 is net occupational pension figure
    epitome wrote: »
    Ok let me see if I can clarify a few benefit amounts to see where we are and where we might be.

    Your Current ESA C = £109.65
    His Carers Allowance = £62.70
    Your PIP DL = Enhanced
    His PIP DL = Standard

    His Income Support currently should be
    £114.85 (couple personal allowance)
    £34.95 (carer premium)
    £62.45 (severe disability premium couple lower rate - for him)
    £22.85 (enhanced disability premium couple)
    £46.40 (disability premium couple)
    £281.50 (sub total)
    -£62.70 (carers allowance)
    -£109.65 (Your ESA C)
    -£69 (Your Pension)
    £40.15 TOTAL

    So that is where you both should be right now. Ignoring PIPs as they make no difference,
    You get £109.65
    He gets £62.70 + £40.15 = £102.85
    TOTAL both of you = £211.50

    ***********************************************************
    Now the only thing that can change at this stage is if he closes or withdraws his Income Support claim (because you can't do an ESA3 unless he closes IS) and (he -as far as I know- can't claim ESA C unless he closes Income Support)

    If he closes IS...**and you are allowed to do ESA3** <<this bit is important, you may not be allowed to do an ESA IR claim. You will be sent an ESA3 when you tell ESA, but what they do with the ESA3 when they receive it back is what matters.

    Your ESA would be:
    £114.85 (couple personal allowance)
    £36.55 (support group)
    £22.85 (enhanced disability premim)
    £62.45 (severe disability premium)
    £34.95 (carer premium)
    -£62.70 (carers allowance)
    -£69 (occ pen)
    £139.95 TOTAL

    You would get £139.95
    He would get £62.70
    Total both of you £201.65

    So far, Income Support is winning. Now let's see what happens when he claims ESA C.

    His potential ESA C NS = £73.10 (for 1 year) (There is no WRAG amount anymore on new claims from April 2017)

    Your ESA would be:
    £114.85 (couple personal allowance)
    £36.55 (support group)
    £22.85 (enhanced disability premim couple)
    £124.90 (severe disability premium couple higher rate)
    £34.95 (carer premium)
    -£73.10 (his ESA)
    -£69 (occ pen)
    £192.00 TOTAL

    He would get ESA C £73.10 (his Carer's allowance would stay open but CA payment would stop - underlying entitlement)

    Total both of you = £192.00 + £73.10 = £265.10

    As I thought, if you did it this way it beats Income Support by a long way. But you only get this for 1 year then he would not be allowed to go back to IS due to UCFSA, instead you would stay on ESA IR and he would be ESA C nil rate and Carers allowance will start paying again (but he has to ask them to pay again and it is important he does ask them), total £201.65

    Purely on contributory benefits you get £109.55,
    He gets £73.10
    Total = £182.75 so Income Support is better than this. so you need to be careful before closing IS.

    So that's the adjusted amounts taking in the pension.
    At the end of the day the potential increase in benefit over Income Support will only be for 1 year and then it will go down again to an amount less than what Income Support is going to give you now. There is the possiblity that he can renew his ESA WRAG Conts for a 2nd year, and possibly even for a 3rd year.

    1 year on Income Support
    would be 52 x 211.50 = £11,000.00 **and this would continue for year 2 , year 3, year 4 etc

    1 year on the ESA IR only
    would be 52 * 201.65 = £10,485 **this would continue as long as you remain in support group. it is £500 less than Income Support

    1 year on the maximum benefit combination ESA IR and ESA C
    would be 52 * 265.10 = £13,785 *this would usually only be for 1 year, it is £2,785 more than Income Support for that 1 year, and you would still be better off after the end of the fifth year compared to Income Support. But if he qualifies for a 2nd year of ESA WRAG Conts even better, another £2,785 better.

    *you can both have ESA Conts
    *only one of you can have an Income related benefit, but it will be for both of you.

    *You also said earlier "He will definatley qualify for ESA Conts.. How do you know? Do you know the criteria for getting it? Because if he does not qualify for it then , well it won't be the end of the world, but you will have lost out on approx £500 a year for the rest of your claiming life to find out.
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 342.2K Banking & Borrowing
  • 249.8K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 449.3K Spending & Discounts
  • 234.4K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 606.7K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 172.7K Life & Family
  • 247.2K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.8K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards