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  • FIRST POST
    • bluenose2
    • By bluenose2 3rd Jul 17, 1:55 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 4Thanks
    bluenose2
    Flexible Working. Reduce lunch break...
    • #1
    • 3rd Jul 17, 1:55 PM
    Flexible Working. Reduce lunch break... 3rd Jul 17 at 1:55 PM
    Good Afternoon,

    I have been with my company for over 5 years now and due to my daughter starting school in September I am required to change my hours in order to support with collection.

    Ordinarily I work 9-5 with a 1 hour lunch break but I am requesting a change in hours from September to 9-4:30 with a half hour lunch break.

    I have unofficially discussed this with my HR representative and he advised that I would be able to go down to the hours requested but cannot sacrifice my lunch break as they're unpaid, I would therefore have to take a salary sacrifice of a daily half an hour.

    Now of course I would much rather take the hit on lunch break in order to preserve my salary, am I being unreasonable here? Apparently they have rejected similar claims before and therefore it's unlikely mine would be accepted.

    I have asked them to arrange a formal meeting as per process but not feeling very confident based on the "informal conversation".

    Any suggestions or advice is appreciated.
Page 2
    • glentoran99
    • By glentoran99 3rd Jul 17, 5:18 PM
    • 4,857 Posts
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    glentoran99
    Legally, they have to insist that you take 1/2 hour, which is usually unpaid. However, many companies believe that staff perform better if they take one hour break so will have their own policy to insist on this.

    They are entitled to demand an hour break from ALL their employees whatever the circumstances. They've followed the law, considered your request and agree on some flexible arrangements, so nothing you can do about it.
    Originally posted by FBaby
    No they havent, shes had an informal chat, they also haven't given a valid reason (listed above) for refusal
    Last edited by glentoran99; 03-07-2017 at 5:21 PM.
    • Takeaway_Addict
    • By Takeaway_Addict 3rd Jul 17, 6:38 PM
    • 5,642 Posts
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    Takeaway_Addict
    Employers can only reject your request for the following reasons


    the burden of additional costs
    an inability to reorganise work amongst existing staff
    an inability to recruit additional staff
    a detrimental impact on quality
    a detrimental impact on performance
    detrimental effect on ability to meet customer demand
    insufficient work for the periods the employee proposes to work
    a planned structural changes to the business.




    I would make an application and wait and see what the official response is, If its not one of the above reasons then appeal, Citing the above, and reasons why it doesnt they cant then change the reason, That's exactly what I had to do in my work
    Originally posted by glentoran99
    Its not difficult for the employer to make one of those reasons fit and if the employee doesn't agree then they'd need to go to a tribunal and realistically most of the time this isn't happening and even then doesn't mean a change will be made.
    Don't trust a forum for advice. Get proper paid advice. Any advice given should always be checked
    • glentoran99
    • By glentoran99 3rd Jul 17, 7:01 PM
    • 4,857 Posts
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    glentoran99
    Its not difficult for the employer to make one of those reasons fit and if the employee doesn't agree then they'd need to go to a tribunal and realistically most of the time this isn't happening and even then doesn't mean a change will be made.
    Originally posted by Takeaway_Addict
    Its not difficult, however if they make the mistake my employer did and give another reason first they cant then go "oh hang on" The op employer has accepted in principal the hours would be fine, So I cant see how they could apply one of the reason listed, and doesn't have to be a tribunal as the next step you can use ACAS arbrtration
    • Takeaway_Addict
    • By Takeaway_Addict 3rd Jul 17, 7:08 PM
    • 5,642 Posts
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    Takeaway_Addict
    Its not difficult, however if they make the mistake my employer did and give another reason first they cant then go "oh hang on" The op employer has accepted in principal the hours would be fine, So I cant see how they could apply one of the reason listed, and doesn't have to be a tribunal as the next step you can use ACAS arbrtration
    Originally posted by glentoran99
    True but doesn't this require employer particpation in which they could refuse?

    Ultimately if the employer doesn't want it to happen it can't be forced through.
    Don't trust a forum for advice. Get proper paid advice. Any advice given should always be checked
    • jessex1990
    • By jessex1990 3rd Jul 17, 7:12 PM
    • 134 Posts
    • 75 Thanks
    jessex1990
    You could ask to start and finish earlier if your kids school has a breakfast club? That way you are doing the same hours, people can't complain about unfairness of you leaving early if you started work before they did.

    Saying that though 10 hours per month sacrificed from your salary isn't too much
    Last edited by jessex1990; 03-07-2017 at 7:14 PM.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 3rd Jul 17, 7:23 PM
    • 30,336 Posts
    • 18,139 Thanks
    getmore4less
    Why do you think this? What they have said looks pretty straightforward to me.
    Originally posted by ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    What they said is nonsense.

    That you can't swap an unpaid 1/2hr for a paid 1/2 hour.

    If the break was paid it makes more sense as there is a drop in 1/2 hour of paid time.


    There may be other reasons why the change is not acceptable but the stated one is not valid.
    • mrschaucer
    • By mrschaucer 3rd Jul 17, 7:27 PM
    • 464 Posts
    • 497 Thanks
    mrschaucer
    getmore4less, I agree. They want her to work 35 hours and only pay her for 32.5 ... Nice if they get away with it!
    Edit. Ooops, no, ignore that. Too many G&Ts ...
    Last edited by mrschaucer; 03-07-2017 at 7:30 PM.
    • glentoran99
    • By glentoran99 3rd Jul 17, 7:31 PM
    • 4,857 Posts
    • 3,856 Thanks
    glentoran99
    True but doesn't this require employer particpation in which they could refuse?

    Ultimately if the employer doesn't want it to happen it can't be forced through.
    Originally posted by Takeaway_Addict


    Perhaps, getting a wee bit ahead here anyway she hasn't even properly applied yet
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 3rd Jul 17, 8:03 PM
    • 9,947 Posts
    • 8,006 Thanks
    lincroft1710
    . Too many G&Ts ...
    Originally posted by mrschaucer
    You should be very careful with G&T, there are many cases of the tonic water being suspect.
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 3rd Jul 17, 9:50 PM
    • 1,872 Posts
    • 2,382 Thanks
    unforeseen
    What they said is nonsense.

    That you can't swap an unpaid 1/2hr for a paid 1/2 hour.

    If the break was paid it makes more sense as there is a drop in 1/2 hour of paid time.


    There may be other reasons why the change is not acceptable but the stated one is not valid.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Try re-reading the OP. HR have said she can't sacrifice the Lunch hour so to allow a 4:30 finish she would need to sacrifice half hour of paid time.?
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 3rd Jul 17, 10:34 PM
    • 30,336 Posts
    • 18,139 Thanks
    getmore4less
    Good Afternoon,

    I have been with my company for over 5 years now and due to my daughter starting school in September I am required to change my hours in order to support with collection.

    Ordinarily I work 9-5 with a 1 hour lunch break but I am requesting a change in hours from September to 9-4:30 with a half hour lunch break.

    I have unofficially discussed this with my HR representative and he advised that I would be able to go down to the hours requested but cannot sacrifice my lunch break as they're unpaid, I would therefore have to take a salary sacrifice of a daily half an hour.

    Now of course I would much rather take the hit on lunch break in order to preserve my salary, am I being unreasonable here? Apparently they have rejected similar claims before and therefore it's unlikely mine would be accepted.

    I have asked them to arrange a formal meeting as per process but not feeling very confident based on the "informal conversation".

    Any suggestions or advice is appreciated.
    Originally posted by bluenose2
    Try re-reading the OP. HR have said she can't sacrifice the Lunch hour so to allow a 4:30 finish she would need to sacrifice half hour of paid time.?
    Originally posted by unforeseen
    The OP said HR said they can't use the lunch time because it is unpaid.

    The OP want so swap an unpaid 1/2 hour lunch for the paid 1/2 hour at end of day.


    if they just don't want OP working through lunch they should say that and not make some rubbish about it not being paid
    Last edited by getmore4less; 03-07-2017 at 10:38 PM.
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 4th Jul 17, 12:35 AM
    • 2,049 Posts
    • 3,071 Thanks
    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    You can't drop an unpaid half hour, you have to drop a paid half hour. You have to do that because they say so. it's not nonsense because that's the rule they made.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 4th Jul 17, 6:04 AM
    • 16,089 Posts
    • 39,967 Thanks
    FBaby
    No they havent, shes had an informal chat, they also haven't given a valid reason (listed above) for refusal
    That's incorrect. She asked to leave early, and they've agreed. They however didn't agree to her taking only 1/2 hour which they can do. I expect it's probably written in their policy that staff has to take 1 hour at lunch and therefore they don't require to give a reason, just to point to the policy.
    • bluenose2
    • By bluenose2 4th Jul 17, 1:57 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    bluenose2
    Wow, thanks for all of the responses, it appears that I have caused a storm!

    Just to confirm, work have informally already clarified that they are more than happy for me to start work later (as there will be no business impact) but have confirmed that as my lunch break is UNPAID, I cannot make up the half an hour during this time.

    I hope this clears things up.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 4th Jul 17, 2:00 PM
    • 18,785 Posts
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    jobbingmusician
    Clear as mud, to me. Where did starting work later come from, all of a sudden? Do you mean starting work earlier, by any chance?
    I'm the Board Guide on the Matched Betting; Referrers and Jobseeking & Training boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

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    • bluenose2
    • By bluenose2 4th Jul 17, 2:22 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    bluenose2
    Clear as mud, to me. Where did starting work later come from, all of a sudden? Do you mean starting work earlier, by any chance?
    Originally posted by jobbingmusician
    Oops, my mistake!
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 4th Jul 17, 3:06 PM
    • 2,049 Posts
    • 3,071 Thanks
    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    I thought you wanted to finish work earlier.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 4th Jul 17, 4:29 PM
    • 30,336 Posts
    • 18,139 Thanks
    getmore4less
    Wow, thanks for all of the responses, it appears that I have caused a storm!

    Just to confirm, work have informally already clarified that they are more than happy for me to start work later (as there will be no business impact) but have confirmed that as my lunch break is UNPAID, I cannot make up the half an hour during this time.

    I hope this clears things up.
    Originally posted by bluenose2
    That's the nonsense if you work it becomes work time and paid.

    The lunch break if it is not paid is not work time it is free time.

    What they are saying is you cannot convert time you are not working to time you are working.
    • lush walrus
    • By lush walrus 4th Jul 17, 4:55 PM
    • 1,927 Posts
    • 1,600 Thanks
    lush walrus
    So as they have agreed to reduce the hours you are in the building but not the lunch break, is the problem that under that agreement you will earn 2.5 hours less per week? The hours they have informally agreed suit you, just that you would prefer to shorten your lunch break and be paid for the same hours as now.

    Seems rather petty of them to not agree to a reduced lunch break, not something I would do but the upside is if you can stomach the loss in earnings you do have the start and end times you need.

    Or have I misunderstood as I seem to be seeing a different issue to everyone else
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 4th Jul 17, 6:59 PM
    • 18,785 Posts
    • 19,088 Thanks
    jobbingmusician
    My current understanding is this.

    For some reason, employer does not want staff to take less than an hour for lunch. The lunch break is unpaid. This is a pain, but is the employer's right.

    The employer has, however, agreed that the OP can work 8.30-4.30 instead of 9-5, which solves the end of day problem. (This is what the OP meant when she said 'I can start work later.' She should have written 'I can start work earlier.' but made a mistake.)

    Have I got it right?
    I'm the Board Guide on the Matched Betting; Referrers and Jobseeking & Training boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    The good folk of the matched betting board are now (I hope!) supporting Macmillan, in memory of Fifigrace. Visit
    https://www.gofundme.com/running-the-leeds-10k-for-macmillan
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