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  • FIRST POST
    fighting the good fight
    I have CCJ against company but the debt hasn't been paid
    • #1
    • 27th Oct 13, 10:17 PM
    I have CCJ against company but the debt hasn't been paid 27th Oct 13 at 10:17 PM
    I'm surprised at how difficult this process through the small claims court is, and I really need advice. I'll try to keep the facts of my case simple,:

    • Through the Small Claims Court, I have a CCJ against a "Limited" company, for £1000 + costs
    • I have tried to 'enforce the judgment', using County Court bailiffs, but they say something like "there are no saleable goods at this private residence"
    • I think I understand that other methods of enforcing the judgment, including a Charge against his Property and Freezing his Assets, are useless - because it's a Limited company
    • I don't know for sure if the company / its owner is still trading, under any name. I have been on the 'companieshouse' website as I write this and the company has a blank status (ie not 'dissolved' or other), suggesting it still trades.
    My questions are:

    Is it worth pursuing the enforcement route of Ordering him to Attend court?
    Is there a bankruptcy route i can pursue, and how, and is it worth it?
    Is it worth elevating from County Court to High Court?

    And, what do I have to do to work out which of these options best suits my circumstances, and / or is the most likely to succeed?

    Finally, am I right that there is no limit to the legal costs I can incur in chasing this debt that will be added to his debt? ie, if I have to pursue all available measures /costs before getting my money, will he ultimately be legally responsible for them all?
Page 1
    • Buzby
    • By Buzby 27th Oct 13, 10:41 PM
    • 8,128 Posts
    • 2,980 Thanks
    Buzby
    • #2
    • 27th Oct 13, 10:41 PM
    • #2
    • 27th Oct 13, 10:41 PM
    It really doesn't matter what assets the director has - they're his, and your action was against his company - a separate legal entity. So, unless his home was designated as company property, bailiffs would not levy distraint on it.

    You can ask the court to order a representative of the company to attend, but this could be any director or nominated person (a secretary or accountant) not a named individual.

    You can certainly apply to wind up the company, but not bankrupt a director as you are an unsecured creditor - in any case, there may be no liquidity to benefit you.

    You are chasing a shadow - you cannot make HIM liable for your ongoing actions, only the company, and that may be worth nothing.

    If you know where the company bank account is, attempt to garnishee it. If this doesn't work - stop pursuing, as there is nothing you can do to get blood out of a stone.
    • grumbler
    • By grumbler 27th Oct 13, 11:02 PM
    • 51,388 Posts
    • 21,762 Thanks
    grumbler
    • #3
    • 27th Oct 13, 11:02 PM
    • #3
    • 27th Oct 13, 11:02 PM
    Finally, am I right that there is no limit to the legal costs I can incur in chasing this debt that will be added to his debt? ie, if I have to pursue all available measures /costs before getting my money, will he ultimately be legally responsible for them all?
    Originally posted by fighting the good fight
    I've was once told that it's not the case for court cases between private parties. Don't know if it's the same for business.

    Also, I've heard that it's pretty easy to get their bank account(s) frozen that can be a nuisance if they still keep trading.
    We are born naked, wet and hungry...Then things get worse.

    .withdrawal, NOT withdrawel ..bear with me, NOT bare with me
    .definitely, NOT definately ......separate, NOT seperate
    should have, NOT should of
    .....guaranteed, NOT guarenteed
    • inmypocketnottheirs
    • By inmypocketnottheirs 28th Oct 13, 8:25 AM
    • 4,535 Posts
    • 2,159 Thanks
    inmypocketnottheirs
    • #4
    • 28th Oct 13, 8:25 AM
    • #4
    • 28th Oct 13, 8:25 AM
    A CCJ against a limited company will make it very hard to get facilities from his bank or credit from suppliers.

    What's the history of the company?
    Don't lie, thieve, cheat or steal. The Government do not like the competition.
    The Lord Giveth and the Government Taketh Away.
    I'm sorry, I don't apologise. That's just the way I am. Homer (Simpson)
    • HappyMJ
    • By HappyMJ 28th Oct 13, 8:46 AM
    • 20,599 Posts
    • 17,208 Thanks
    HappyMJ
    • #5
    • 28th Oct 13, 8:46 AM
    • #5
    • 28th Oct 13, 8:46 AM
    I'm surprised at how difficult this process through the small claims court is, and I really need advice. I'll try to keep the facts of my case simple,:

    • Through the Small Claims Court, I have a CCJ against a "Limited" company, for £1000 + costs
    • I have tried to 'enforce the judgment', using County Court bailiffs, but they say something like "there are no saleable goods at this private residence"
    • I think I understand that other methods of enforcing the judgment, including a Charge against his Property and Freezing his Assets, are useless - because it's a Limited company
    • I don't know for sure if the company / its owner is still trading, under any name. I have been on the 'companieshouse' website as I write this and the company has a blank status (ie not 'dissolved' or other), suggesting it still trades.
    My questions are:

    Is it worth pursuing the enforcement route of Ordering him to Attend court?
    Is there a bankruptcy route i can pursue, and how, and is it worth it?
    Is it worth elevating from County Court to High Court?

    And, what do I have to do to work out which of these options best suits my circumstances, and / or is the most likely to succeed?

    Finally, am I right that there is no limit to the legal costs I can incur in chasing this debt that will be added to his debt? ie, if I have to pursue all available measures /costs before getting my money, will he ultimately be legally responsible for them all?
    Originally posted by fighting the good fight
    will he ultimately be legally responsible for them all?

    No....

    It's a limited company the liability of the company is limited to the money the shareholders invested in the first place. That's usually just £1. So there isn't much else you can do.

    Regular savers earn 6% interest (HSBC, First Direct, M&S) Loans cost 2.9% per year (Nationwide) = FREE money.
    • bris
    • By bris 28th Oct 13, 10:00 AM
    • 7,033 Posts
    • 6,037 Thanks
    bris
    • #6
    • 28th Oct 13, 10:00 AM
    • #6
    • 28th Oct 13, 10:00 AM
    Be careful in how much more money you throw at this.

    The bailiffs will know the likelihood of recovery and it sounds to me like they have already told you there is nothing to recover.

    Ltd companies are a haven for fly by nights who set up these businesses and give false promises like 10 year warranties etc. But when they have taken enough and the problems start they simply walk away and start a new company, this is not new, it's been going on for years and there is nothing the Bailiffs can do to recover what is not there.
  • fighting the good fight
    • #7
    • 31st Oct 13, 10:48 AM
    • #7
    • 31st Oct 13, 10:48 AM
    Thanks for all that. I think I'm dealing with a still-operating one-man company, who hopes I'll just go away; I won't.

    Briefly, how do I apply to wind up the company and how does that work? Might it just scare him into paying me? - like the attending court option.

    It really doesn't matter what assets the director has - they're his, and your action was against his company - a separate legal entity. So, unless his home was designated as company property, bailiffs would not levy distraint on it.

    You can ask the court to order a representative of the company to attend, but this could be any director or nominated person (a secretary or accountant) not a named individual.

    You can certainly apply to wind up the company, but not bankrupt a director as you are an unsecured creditor - in any case, there may be no liquidity to benefit you.

    You are chasing a shadow - you cannot make HIM liable for your ongoing actions, only the company, and that may be worth nothing.

    If you know where the company bank account is, attempt to garnishee it. If this doesn't work - stop pursuing, as there is nothing you can do to get blood out of a stone.
    Originally posted by Buzby
  • fighting the good fight
    • #8
    • 31st Oct 13, 10:50 AM
    • #8
    • 31st Oct 13, 10:50 AM
    Thanks for your time and advice.

    I think I can only freeze his business bank account if I have those details, and I don't unfortunately.

    I've was once told that it's not the case for court cases between private parties. Don't know if it's the same for business.

    Also, I've heard that it's pretty easy to get their bank account(s) frozen that can be a nuisance if they still keep trading.
    Originally posted by grumbler
  • fighting the good fight
    • #9
    • 31st Oct 13, 10:53 AM
    • #9
    • 31st Oct 13, 10:53 AM
    As far as I know it's one guy on his own for the past 2 or 3 years, with a van (don't know if he owns it; the county bailiffs clearly don't know about it or it's leased) and minimum tools - he hires machinery when he needs it and passes on the cost to the customer. I believe he's still trading in the same company name. I think he's just a bit out of his depth, with his head in the sand, hoping I'll go away. If I can get through to him to face facts, I believe I can make him pay. I just need to know the route with the highest chances of success.

    A CCJ against a limited company will make it very hard to get facilities from his bank or credit from suppliers.

    What's the history of the company?
    Originally posted by inmypocketnottheirs
  • fighting the good fight
    I just don't think this is the case with this guy - rather I think he's a bit out of his depth with his head in the sand and hopes I'll go away. I believe he's still trading under the same company name.

    I get the impression the county bailiffs haven't really looked properly or tried hard enough - they are very slow to act and poor at responding to my enquiries. That's why I wondered about elevating it to High Court, as the bailiffs are on commission and therefore much more incentivised to get the money.



    Be careful in how much more money you throw at this.

    The bailiffs will know the likelihood of recovery and it sounds to me like they have already told you there is nothing to recover.

    Ltd companies are a haven for fly by nights who set up these businesses and give false promises like 10 year warranties etc. But when they have taken enough and the problems start they simply walk away and start a new company, this is not new, it's been going on for years and there is nothing the Bailiffs can do to recover what is not there.
    Originally posted by bris
  • ILW
    A personal visit quite often get results.
    What is the director saying to you?
    • bod1467
    • By bod1467 31st Oct 13, 11:11 AM
    • 14,797 Posts
    • 13,463 Thanks
    bod1467
    Is he registered at Companies House? As a Ltd company or a sole trader? (I assume Ltd, but you never know).
    • bris
    • By bris 31st Oct 13, 11:58 AM
    • 7,033 Posts
    • 6,037 Thanks
    bris
    Whether or not he is still trading under the same company is irrelevant, it's whether that company has any assets or not that count.

    You can't touch him personally so you are chasing company assets, get his accounts from companies house and find out what the company has, it's all there for you to download.

    Any further escalation at this time will cost you good money, throwing it away after bad.
    • pinkshoes
    • By pinkshoes 31st Oct 13, 12:57 PM
    • 15,328 Posts
    • 20,885 Thanks
    pinkshoes
    Watch "the sheriffs are coming" at 9.15am on bbc1! People with very similar issues! They took it to the high Court to get their money.
    Should've = Should HAVE (not 'of')
    Would've = Would HAVE (not 'of')

    No, I am not perfect, but yes I do judge people on their use of basic English language. If you didn't know the above, then learn it! (If English is your second language, then you are forgiven!)
    • vaio
    • By vaio 31st Oct 13, 1:22 PM
    • 11,895 Posts
    • 8,840 Thanks
    vaio
    if he is the sort of business that gets paid by cheque/BAC then

    .......If you know where the company bank account is, attempt to garnishee it. .........
    Originally posted by Buzby
    is a good idea

    Our accounts mention the bank we use although whether that is normal/required or just our accountant I don't know. Might be worth a couple of £ to companies house to get the accounts etc.

    If you paid him originally by cheque/bac I'd expect your bank to be able to tell you which bank he uses.
    • hollydays
    • By hollydays 31st Oct 13, 1:27 PM
    • 15,520 Posts
    • 11,308 Thanks
    hollydays
    When I didn't get payment for a ccj once, I contacted the companies trade association, who forced them to pay- pay or we will kick you out, but I'm guessing this small company won't belong to one. If he's local enough, I think you need to find out who he hires his stuff from , speak to people who deal with him, ask his neighbours.im sure the bailiffs knew what they were doing.
  • fighting the good fight
    Yes he is, as a ltd company. What do I do with that information?
    Is he registered at Companies House? As a Ltd company or a sole trader? (I assume Ltd, but you never know).
    Originally posted by bod1467
  • fighting the good fight
    I paid him by bank transfer (is that what you mean by BAC?) but it was in his name, so I think it was his personal account rather than business account. And as it's a ltd company his personal bank details are no good to me.


    if he is the sort of business that gets paid by cheque/BAC then

    is a good idea

    Our accounts mention the bank we use although whether that is normal/required or just our accountant I don't know. Might be worth a couple of £ to companies house to get the accounts etc.

    If you paid him originally by cheque/bac I'd expect your bank to be able to tell you which bank he uses.
    Originally posted by vaio
    • vaio
    • By vaio 31st Oct 13, 2:19 PM
    • 11,895 Posts
    • 8,840 Thanks
    vaio
    I paid him by bank transfer (is that what you mean by BAC?) but it was in his name, so I think it was his personal account rather than business account. And as it's a ltd company his personal bank details are no good to me.
    Originally posted by fighting the good fight
    wouldn't that make him personally liable?
  • fighting the good fight
    OK; from Companies house I have his latest accounts and annual return, indicating company shares worth £5K and a range of assets including tangible assets. So what does this mean for my pursuit of him via county bailiffs???

    if he is the sort of business that gets paid by cheque/BAC then

    is a good idea

    Our accounts mention the bank we use although whether that is normal/required or just our accountant I don't know. Might be worth a couple of £ to companies house to get the accounts etc.

    If you paid him originally by cheque/bac I'd expect your bank to be able to tell you which bank he uses.
    Originally posted by vaio
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