Water Leak Resulting In 3rd Party Damage - Liable?
Legalseeker
Posts: 3 Newbie
Hi, I'm "Legalseeker" and new to here, but I find these threads useful to share experiences and understand the community's viewpoints and also to get some ideas and pointers.
I also have a similar problem to previous threads where water leak occurred in Leasehold Flat and leaked to a property below, which is common issue leasehold properties where LEASE states leaseholder is responsible for conduits.
What Happened:
I just had a water leak from water pipes within my 1st floor flat that leaked for weeks and has destroyed the flat below. The offending leaking water pipes were in the kitchen, but concealed behind a cupboard, then a plywood facia board and then behind plasterboard wall. There was no signs of water leak in my apartment. I am a landlord and I re-housed the tenant while the leak/repairs being sorted. I have Landlords Business Insurance (Buildings & Contents that belong to the Landlord only, and rental income protection) and they are covering my trace and access costs and damage to my flat only during the trace and access and the alternative accommodation costs. The biggest concern I have is regarding liability to third parties.
These are the issues:
1. When i purchased the property 13 years ago (now not covered under NHBC warranty), I was not explained properly the thing about the conduits and the leaseholder being responsible for maintaining the conduits, including water pipes. Therefore, I was under the impression that Buildings Insurance would cover Water Escape and Burst Pipes for the entire block as we pay the service charges. I always only got damage cover and contents protection - never got Buildings Insurance as thought not needed.
2. I accept that the leak stemmed from my flat but the Lease states that conduits are responsibility of the leaseholder to maintain. But my leak occurred from water pipes that were loosely fitted (it simply fell into the hand of the plumber who found the offending pipe) both of the latest plumbers who tried to find the leak said there was trace and access problems. The offending pipe was also behind a white soil pipe which is shared with the flat above and flat below and fitted so close to the soil pipe. As the offending water pipes are behind a kitchen cupboard, then behind plywood board and then behind plasterboard walls, it's not the kind of thing that landlords and homeowners can maintain routinely - who would break down their walls to do a 6 monthly or annually check on their conduits? Stupid clause in the Lease. Then if Management Service Company only insurance the buildings for communal areas and if homeowners cannot get buildings insurance for leasehold flats, then how can conduits be covered separately for all risks?
3. Both of the two last plumbers who conducted a trace and access, but more notably the last one who found the offending leaking pipework indicated it was poorly designed and constructed pipework as trace and access was so difficult. It was found that the pipework was loose, either not properly fitted during construction by the new home builders, or poorly designed to have the pipework hidden soil waste pipe (shared by 3 flats) and there is a risk that if pipework was close to or touching the soil pipe then movements in soil pipe could have disturbed the water pipes over time for them to become loose. Hard to prove I know but a possibility? Your thoughts please?
4. There was no washing machine, dryer or dishwasher in the property for over 2 and a half years. The water pressure into the property is no different to the others as checked by water company. The gas Central Heating engineer reported no issues with boiler pressure. So these are not likely to be the reasons for the pipework being so loose as to fall out as soon as touched. No access to these offending pipes was made since construction and completely hidden and concealed and cannot be seen or maintained and there was nothing indicatively wrong for 13 years.
5. In trying to find the leak, I reacted fairly quickly to Service Management company requests and got out plumbers to try to find the leak. The first plumber couldn't find a leak coming from my flat, the second plumber I paid couldn't find the leak and quoted £10,000 to take the boiler apart and to do the whole job, obviously I was not stupid to fall for that trick and rejected the work. The third plumber found the leak and found the obstruction of the soil pipe, the loose pipework and fixed the leak. However, the Service Management company are claiming I am negligent for not doing enough to find the leak quick enough. I am no expert plumber, but if 4 experienced plumbers came out in 5 visits and it was resolved on the 5th visit, does that make me negligent? Visits could only be done by appointment with the tenant (or tenant;s family) who had changed the locks and refuses to give me (the landlord) a key to the property I own. This also affected the speed and specific times at which trace and access could be done.
6. The flat below was already water logged on the first day that a leak came to my attention. The landlord who owns the flat below and the tenant who lives in the flat below will want me to be negligent because then if I am negligent, they will want to claim against my 3rd party liability cover on my landlords insurance policy. If I am found not to be negligent, whether legally, can I be negligent contractually on the lease. I am fairly certain that my insurance won't pay out for 3rd parties as I am deemed not to have acted negligent - I cannot maintain pipework routinely, I cannot insure them separately, I haven't done anything to obstruct the trace and access and it took 4 plumbers and 5 visits to actually find the leak. Can I still be sued in anyway?
7. Is it worth getting an independent surveyor to come out and access how the pipes became loose or if the white soil pipe obstructed and loosened the pipework or if it was poorly fitted and poorly designed which could be the ultimate cause?
8. I don't think it could have been caused by wear and tear because there was no additional pressures on the water demands and no vibrating machinery in over 2 years. If the pipework was well fitted in the first place and sealed properly, they should be able to withstand normal pressures. These are normal plastic water pipes and were not likely to freeze as home was well heated and water consumption was normal.
Any help that anyone can give around negligence and the issue around root cause and proving it and the insurance issues on how the ground floor flat damage can be repaired through claims on their own insurance by the landlord (buildings) and by the tenant (contents/alternative accommodation) - any advice or thoughts would be so much appreciated.
Legalseeker
I also have a similar problem to previous threads where water leak occurred in Leasehold Flat and leaked to a property below, which is common issue leasehold properties where LEASE states leaseholder is responsible for conduits.
What Happened:
I just had a water leak from water pipes within my 1st floor flat that leaked for weeks and has destroyed the flat below. The offending leaking water pipes were in the kitchen, but concealed behind a cupboard, then a plywood facia board and then behind plasterboard wall. There was no signs of water leak in my apartment. I am a landlord and I re-housed the tenant while the leak/repairs being sorted. I have Landlords Business Insurance (Buildings & Contents that belong to the Landlord only, and rental income protection) and they are covering my trace and access costs and damage to my flat only during the trace and access and the alternative accommodation costs. The biggest concern I have is regarding liability to third parties.
These are the issues:
1. When i purchased the property 13 years ago (now not covered under NHBC warranty), I was not explained properly the thing about the conduits and the leaseholder being responsible for maintaining the conduits, including water pipes. Therefore, I was under the impression that Buildings Insurance would cover Water Escape and Burst Pipes for the entire block as we pay the service charges. I always only got damage cover and contents protection - never got Buildings Insurance as thought not needed.
2. I accept that the leak stemmed from my flat but the Lease states that conduits are responsibility of the leaseholder to maintain. But my leak occurred from water pipes that were loosely fitted (it simply fell into the hand of the plumber who found the offending pipe) both of the latest plumbers who tried to find the leak said there was trace and access problems. The offending pipe was also behind a white soil pipe which is shared with the flat above and flat below and fitted so close to the soil pipe. As the offending water pipes are behind a kitchen cupboard, then behind plywood board and then behind plasterboard walls, it's not the kind of thing that landlords and homeowners can maintain routinely - who would break down their walls to do a 6 monthly or annually check on their conduits? Stupid clause in the Lease. Then if Management Service Company only insurance the buildings for communal areas and if homeowners cannot get buildings insurance for leasehold flats, then how can conduits be covered separately for all risks?
3. Both of the two last plumbers who conducted a trace and access, but more notably the last one who found the offending leaking pipework indicated it was poorly designed and constructed pipework as trace and access was so difficult. It was found that the pipework was loose, either not properly fitted during construction by the new home builders, or poorly designed to have the pipework hidden soil waste pipe (shared by 3 flats) and there is a risk that if pipework was close to or touching the soil pipe then movements in soil pipe could have disturbed the water pipes over time for them to become loose. Hard to prove I know but a possibility? Your thoughts please?
4. There was no washing machine, dryer or dishwasher in the property for over 2 and a half years. The water pressure into the property is no different to the others as checked by water company. The gas Central Heating engineer reported no issues with boiler pressure. So these are not likely to be the reasons for the pipework being so loose as to fall out as soon as touched. No access to these offending pipes was made since construction and completely hidden and concealed and cannot be seen or maintained and there was nothing indicatively wrong for 13 years.
5. In trying to find the leak, I reacted fairly quickly to Service Management company requests and got out plumbers to try to find the leak. The first plumber couldn't find a leak coming from my flat, the second plumber I paid couldn't find the leak and quoted £10,000 to take the boiler apart and to do the whole job, obviously I was not stupid to fall for that trick and rejected the work. The third plumber found the leak and found the obstruction of the soil pipe, the loose pipework and fixed the leak. However, the Service Management company are claiming I am negligent for not doing enough to find the leak quick enough. I am no expert plumber, but if 4 experienced plumbers came out in 5 visits and it was resolved on the 5th visit, does that make me negligent? Visits could only be done by appointment with the tenant (or tenant;s family) who had changed the locks and refuses to give me (the landlord) a key to the property I own. This also affected the speed and specific times at which trace and access could be done.
6. The flat below was already water logged on the first day that a leak came to my attention. The landlord who owns the flat below and the tenant who lives in the flat below will want me to be negligent because then if I am negligent, they will want to claim against my 3rd party liability cover on my landlords insurance policy. If I am found not to be negligent, whether legally, can I be negligent contractually on the lease. I am fairly certain that my insurance won't pay out for 3rd parties as I am deemed not to have acted negligent - I cannot maintain pipework routinely, I cannot insure them separately, I haven't done anything to obstruct the trace and access and it took 4 plumbers and 5 visits to actually find the leak. Can I still be sued in anyway?
7. Is it worth getting an independent surveyor to come out and access how the pipes became loose or if the white soil pipe obstructed and loosened the pipework or if it was poorly fitted and poorly designed which could be the ultimate cause?
8. I don't think it could have been caused by wear and tear because there was no additional pressures on the water demands and no vibrating machinery in over 2 years. If the pipework was well fitted in the first place and sealed properly, they should be able to withstand normal pressures. These are normal plastic water pipes and were not likely to freeze as home was well heated and water consumption was normal.
Any help that anyone can give around negligence and the issue around root cause and proving it and the insurance issues on how the ground floor flat damage can be repaired through claims on their own insurance by the landlord (buildings) and by the tenant (contents/alternative accommodation) - any advice or thoughts would be so much appreciated.
Legalseeker
0
Comments
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The leak starting was almost certainly not due to your negligence. (If your neighbour disagrees, ask them what evidence they have.)
However, once the neighbour reported the leak, you might have been negligent, if you didn't take reasonable steps to stop it.
If that's the case, you might be responsible just for any damage that happened after the neighbour told you about the leak (but not any damage that happened before they told you).
As an example, if the neighbour told you about the leak, it might have been reasonable for you to turn-off the water supply to your flat until the leak was traced and fixed. If you didn't, perhaps that was negligent.
So in any case, you need to concentrate on what you did after the leak was reported to you - and whether that was reasonable or negligent.0 -
Thanks eddddy.
Makes sense. This is how events occurred in date order:
1. The leak was identified when the tenant of the Ground Floor flat found his flat already water logged on 27 Jan and damaged in walls and ceilings and floors. I witnessed the damage with my own eyes. On that same day I got a phone call from the Service Management company to investigate. I carried out inspection on afternoon of 27 Jan and found no water leaks within the bounds of my internal plasterboard walls.
2. I continued to receive calls from the Service Management company advising there was still a leak, I called my Emergency Plumber service who came out on 1st Feb. He found water leaking down a wall but couldn't see any water pipes leaking with the naked eye. He concluded that leak was likely to have occurred from the apartment on 2nd floor. As it happened, there was a water leak in the top floor apartment bathroom. The Service Management company advised me that leak found and dealt with, so I may see trailing water down my wall.
3. On 4th Feb, I visited the middle floor apartment I own and I could still see water dripping through my exposed wall, assuming it is still trailing water but on second thought as 3 days had lapsed I found it odd and reported it to the Service Management Company.
4. We agreed with Service Management Company that an independent plumber came out to all 3 properties and conducted tests. It was at this stage that it was found that my water pipe had a leak in middle (1st) floor apartment as plumber isolated the water supply in my apartment on 7th Feb and leak stopped. Same day I got my new emergency plumber to come out to carry out a trace and access. They quoted £10000 to take off the wall and boiler and to expose the entire wall. I decided not to run with the quote as it was stupidly excessive. Anyway the water supply was off at this stage and the damage had already been long done to the flat below. But finally the water supply was switched off and leak stopped on 7th Feb. Between 8th Feb to 11th Feb, I posted many jobs on MyBuilder and Looked for trademen to come out to do emergency Trace and Access, many declined the job as it was weekend and joblists full. By 9th Feb I had moved my tenant into alternative accommodation as water supply was switched off in my property.
I found one emergency who was willing to come out on 12th Feb, that was the earliest I could get an appointment.
5. on 12th Feb, The tenant's family have the only key as they changed locks and my emergency plumber came and I was there. Plumber started the trace and access and found that there was a soil pipe and a thick wooden baton obstructing some pipes and plumber could not access as did not have tools to remove the baton and to remove the kitchen tiles. Tenant's mother had another appointment and so we all had to leave the apartment until next day.
6. On 13th Feb, we tried again with the plumber having the correct tools. More of the plywood was removed from the wall, behind a small cavity was the plasterboard, then was found some water pipes in an L shape to the corner, behind a soil pipe and baton and then running through to the adjacent wall. The water supply was still off. The gas supply turned off as were next to the water pipes. The water supply was turned on for a few minutes and the wooden baton was chopped off and we could see the L shaped offending water pipe resting on to the soil pipe - it was leaking at both ends. As soon a the plumber touched it, the offending pipe simply fell into his hand.
Prior to 27th Jan the flat below was already water logged, walls and ceiling and carpets damaged, before it came to my attention.
On 1st Feb, my plumber did not identify leak as coming from my property, plumber had seen the apartment below and check the same area in my property. He only found water trickling down an interior breeze block wall - came to the conclusion that the leak is likely to be coming from property above..
Between 27th Jan to 7th Feb, no leaks identified as being from my property, the leak from the top floor was a smokescreen but everyone thought that was the offending leak source.
Between 7th Feb to 13th Feb, the water supply was already switched off from the moment it was proven the leak was coming from my property. A simple supply water test across all 3 properties proved the leak was coming from the middle (1st) Floor flat.
Not at any point between 27th Jan to 13th Feb did I physically see the offending pipe until the 4th plumber in the 5th visit had shown me the offending water pipes.Only then could we repair the pipe and turn the water supply back on.
Q: Could I be held liable for a water logged ground floor apartment that was already damaged to the extreme prior to the leak being advised to me way back on 27th Jan? Am I liable for that?
Q: If I worked on the advice of 4 different plumbers and 5 different visits and reacted as new information became available, could I be liable for the minimal damage caused between 1st Feb and 7th Feb when water supply was still on and when it was thought that the leak was coming from another property above or subsequent from 7th to 13th when the water supply was switched off? I am no plumbing expert and I was advised by others as to the "Likely Source" of the leak.
Q: Could I be liable for the time delay if the plumbers never found or saw the offending leaking pipe until 13th Feb, after obstructing objects were removed to then expose the pipework?
Q; Could I be overall liable for putting right the ground floor flat, landlord's structures and tenant's contents given that 99% of this extreme damage occurred prior to 27th Jan?
Q: Overall, am I liable to any third party, or would it be wise for the ground floor landlord and tenant to claim through their own insurances and get the ground floor flat fixed, rather than trying to sue me in a court of law or trying to claim through my insurance who will find that I have not been negligent in the main?
Your thoughts please. Appreciate it is a complex case.0 -
If the neighbour takes you to court, it would be for the court to decide whether you acted reasonably. (I'm not going to offer an opinion.)
Also, if the neighbour gives a different version of events, it would be for the court to decide whether they believe you or the neighbour.
But... if your insurers are involved, they might decide it's cheaper to pay your neighbours' claim, than to spend time and money defending it.
As an aside, you mentioned that your tenants changed the lock, which resulted in a delay fixing the leak. If changing the lock was a breach of the terms of the AST, and it results in a loss to you (you have to pay more compensation to the neighbour), you can claim that loss from your tenants.0 -
Thanks eddddy, that has been helpful. Cheers much appreciated.
Do you think it's worth paying an independent surveyor to assess how poorly the pipes were fitted in the first place and the design of the pipework by the original construction company (i.e. touching / being fitted behind a shared soil waste pipe serving 3 properties and possibility of being disturbed) and if that were to be the case then the Freeholders Landlord's block buildings insurance could possibly come into play?0 -
Legalseeker wrote: »Do you think it's worth paying an independent surveyor to assess how poorly the pipes were fitted in the first place and the design of the pipework by the original construction company (i.e. touching / being fitted behind a shared soil waste pipe serving 3 properties and possibility of being disturbed)
I can't see any benefit to doing that. There's no way to make any claim against the original construction company.Legalseeker wrote: »...and if that were to be the case then the Freeholders Landlord's block buildings insurance could possibly come into play?
No - if anything, it would have the opposite effect.
The freeholder's buildings insurance probably covers damage caused to the building by escape of water.
BUT... it probably excludes damage caused as a result of poor workmanship or poor design. So you (and everyone else) should avoid mentioning poor workmanship in any insurance claims.0
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