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4 PCNs in 7 days in residential carpark

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  • The_Deep
    The_Deep Posts: 16,830 Forumite
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    their property services manager and I don't wish to do that, she's misguided but I don't want her investigated


    If she is putting the interests of the PPC before those of residents then a complaint should be made.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • scrib2074
    scrib2074 Posts: 25 Forumite
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    The_Deep wrote: »
    their property services manager and I don't wish to do that, she's misguided but I don't want her investigated


    If she is putting the interests of the PPC before those of residents then a complaint should be made.

    I agree in principle but the problem is she seems to genuinely believe that the PPC have the same interests as she does, that is: ensuring residents have access to parking. So far I have not been able to convince her that the permit system is a cynical ploy to allow the PPC to ticket residents. I'm uncomfortable with complaining about somebody with such childlike innocence.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,683 Forumite
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    You should use whatever wording feels comfortable for your case, at each stage. I just feel that saying it's not a complaint detracts from what follows, in your first draft.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • scrib2074
    scrib2074 Posts: 25 Forumite
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    You should use whatever wording feels comfortable for your case, at each stage. I just feel that saying it's not a complaint detracts from what follows, in your first draft.

    Thanks, yes, this is just the first stage. I've never had any kind of dispute with my landlord before and have no idea how they will respond. Uncharted waters so I'm going to sail carefully.

    I have removed the complaint bit all together, realised they cannot make it official anyway so it's a waste of words. I also wanted to let them know that my tenancy predates the introduction of the scammers and I know there was no consultation about it.

    I've removed the bit about not paying the PCNs as it's not hugely relevant to my landlord and the court action and counter claim bit I can keep in my hand in case it's needed. I wanted to let them know that the paper permits are a scam and there are alternatives.

    The changes are at the beginning and the middle, I included the whole thing for ease and cohesiveness.
    Dear Mickey Housing

    I have been a Mickey tenant for 7 years. I have owned a car for that entire period and have used the carpark at KT for parking my car when necessary that entire time. I had no issues with non residents using the carpark in the approximately three years I lived here before the implementation of a parking management scheme. I was therefore surprised to go outside one day and see that signs had gone up restricting parking rights.

    I was recently issued four Parking Charge Notices (PCN) by the private parking company Greedy Park (GP). The first incident for which the PCNs were issued is dated 00 April 2017 and the last 0 May 2017. The reason for issue is failure to display a valid permit.

    I do not have a valid permit as I changed my car in February. The new permit style issued by GP requires the holder to write their Vehicle Registration Mark (VRM) on it. My new car, obviously, had a different VRM and I wrote this over the top of the old one in black ink on the permit. I naively believed the purpose of the permit was to show I was a bone fide resident and that the new VRM written in black ink would confirm the permit was not being transferred between cars. GP have informed me that you agreed with them that a replacement permit would cost £10 plus £2 banking fee. Have you agreed that if a tenant wishes to change their vehicle there will be a £12 fee for doing so as a fait accompli?

    Please refer to the tenancy agreement signed by both myself and Mickey Housing dated 0 May 2010. Within this agreement there is no obligation placed on myself as a tenant to display a permit in my vehicle when using the carpark. Parking is only directly referenced once in Section 3.41 which prescribes that I use my car in a considerate manner and that I maintain it in accordance with the law. I am meeting those requirements. Section 1.17 of the agreement allows for Mickey to make changes to the contract under certain circumstances. Mickey has introduced no such variance that requires me to display a permit.

    I contend that the tenancy agreement has primacy of contract and that GP's punitive charges are baseless and unenforceable. Please refer to the recent cases of Pace v Mr N [2016] C6GF140 and Link Parking v Ms P C7GF50J7. In both of these cases it was found that a parking company could not override a tenant's right to park by requiring a permit to park. In the first case I referenced District Judge Coonan makes the concept of primacy of contract clear. What GP are attempting to do, unilaterally and outside the tenancy agreement, is restrict my right to park to only when a permit is displayed. They cannot do this. And Mickey cannot give them permission to do this.

    Therefore, GP have no case against me and have committed a breach of the Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA) when they applied for keeper details for my vehicle. I have served them a Section 10 notice under the DPA. As GP are acting as your agent, having been authorised by you to carry out its parking management, you are jointly and severally liable for its breaches of the DPA. Furthermore, my right to peacefully occupy the premises is being compromised by a flurry of letters with threats of dire legal consequences if I do not comply with arbitrary conditions and make immediate payment to your agent, GP.

    Please note GP had cause to believe I was a genuine resident by the presence of the adjusted permit. They had better cause when they obtained keeper details with the registered address as 00 KT Flats. Yet they continued to pursue me for payment and issued 3 further PCNs. No reputable parking company would ticket a bona fide resident. I am being ticketed for keeping my car outside my home.

    A reputable parking company would simply maintain a database of resident VRMs that a parking attendant may check against. The parking company my employer has contracted with uses just such a scheme. Their employees incur no costs. GP use paper permits so they can both ticket as many residents as possible for any infraction and make money by requiring their replacement for any simple change in circumstance.

    Please do not send me GP's contact details in your reply or refer me to their spurious appeals system or to that of the Independent Appeals Service. I am writing to you as the landowner and my landlord.

    I have contacted Mickey by email several times about this issue. I asked that Mickey intervene with GP to get the PCNs cancelled and that my car's VRM be added to a whitelist to stop further harassment. My most recent correspondence was with AB, Housing Services Manager. She stated that the reason for the introduction of a parking scheme was that you want to ensure residents can use the car park without problems. I am a resident. I consider 4 invoices demanding payment of £400 total if not paid within 14 days for using that same carpark a problem.

    Finally, Ms B referred me back to GP and stated that they were operating with Mickey's permission. Morally I find your tacit support for GP's most rapacious, and deeply cynical, misuse of the purpose for which they were engaged repugnant.

    Please reply to the above address within 15 working days.







  • scrib2074
    scrib2074 Posts: 25 Forumite
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    The plot thickens. I got a letter from my landlord today to "all tenants".
    "Full consultation with tenants" before PPC was invited in
    . There was none.
    PPC could manage carpark at no cost to Mickey or tenants, 2 parking permits issued free annually. Additional permits at £5 each. Tenants buy new new permits if they change their vehicle.

    Not sure if a new permit is the same as an additional one but the cost is £12 not £5.

    Then Mickey gets tough.
    They will NOT intervene where the PPC has issued a parking charge. This is an outsourced service regulated by the IAS, a certified Dispute Resolution entity so we have confidence in their conduct and judgement. We would like to maintain the good joint partner relationship we have with the PPC and not undermine their decisions.

    It's interesting they value their relationship with the PPC more than that with their tenants. I'm glad I haven't posted the letter I wrote as I will be making some adjustments.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,683 Forumite
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    edited 23 May 2017 at 10:55PM
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    They will NOT intervene where the PPC has issued a parking charge. This is an outsourced service regulated by the IAS, a certified Dispute Resolution entity so we have confidence in their conduct and judgement. We would like to maintain the good joint partner relationship we have with the PPC and not undermine their decisions.

    I have never seen such a deluded and idiotic opinion about the *fine* (considered by many here) kangaroo court that is the IAS.

    Why don't you send a letter or put notes on the communal boards for ''all tenants'' to disabuse them of the fanciful notion that the IAS is a 'service' providing fair judgments for consumers. Tell everyone that in fact, the IAS is run by the same people who run the parking firm's own Trade Body AND they are the same two people who run Gladstones Solicitors, whose potential conflict of interest is clear to any independent fair-minded person. Gladstones being the firm who sue people for these parking firms, hot on the heels of (quelle surprise) a lost appeal at the ''IAS'' stage.

    Maybe attach a copy of the Parking Prankster's Blog about the (alleged) kangaroo court and Mr Hurley/Mr Davies' mixed interests.

    I wonder if more tenants/residents than you realise, have been complaining. Get together?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
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  • scrib2074
    scrib2074 Posts: 25 Forumite
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    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    I have never seen such a deluded and idiotic opinion about the fine kangaroo court that is the IAS.

    Why don't you send a letter or put notes on the communal boards for ''all tenants'' to disabuse them of the fanciful notion that the IAS is a 'service' providing fair judgments for consumers. Tell everyone that in fact, the IAS is run by the same people who run the parking firm's own Trade Body AND they are the same two people who run Gladstones Solicitors, whose potential conflict of interest is clear to any independent fair-minded person. Gladstones being the firm who sue people for these parking firms, hot on the heels of (quelle surprise) a lost appeal at the ''IAS'' stage.

    Maybe attach a copy of the Parking Prankster's Blog about the kangaroo court and Mr Hurley/Mr Davies' mixed interests.

    I wonder if more tenants/residents than you realise, have been complaining. Get together?

    Thanks very much for this as that's exactly what I was thinking of doing and I was sure I'd read on here somewhere that the IAS are hardly impartial.

    There's a line in the letter about tenants having to buy a new permit if they get a new car which I'm sure was aimed at me. The fact they sent it to everyone though suggests maybe more people are complaining. I'm going to write a rebuttal to the HA letter and send it to all tenants, including that about the IAS. And point out that their valued partner charge £12 for permits not the £5 that they agreed.

    The letter also says that when they set up the deal the PPC said the "service" would be provided at no cost to the HA or tenants. In the very same paragraph is the bit about tenants having to buy new permits if they change car. How is £12 not a cost? It's mind boggling. Deluded and idiotic indeed.
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,350 Forumite
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    The letter also says that when they set up the deal the PPC said the "service" would be provided at no cost to the HA or tenants.
    What they mean is the PPC will not charge a parking management charge; it will be a free service.

    Well zippeee, what a great deal your MA has done on your behalfs. I bet they're feeling smirkingly pleased with their hard negotiating skills to get all that for free.

    Well, Mr MA, are you not aware that they've offered you nothing as this is the business model of every PPC in the land? Gain entry to the car park by offering a free service, but licensed then to rape and pillage the bank accounts of anyone who falls foul of their made up, heavily self-weighted rules and regulations.

    That's the great 'no cost' deal your MA has done for you.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • scrib2074
    scrib2074 Posts: 25 Forumite
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    Umkomaas wrote: »
    What they mean is the PPC will not charge a parking management charge; it will be a free service.

    Well zippeee, what a great deal your MA has done on your behalfs. I bet they're feeling smirkingly pleased with their hard negotiating skills to get all that for free.

    Well, Mr MA, are you not aware that they've offered you nothing as this is the business model of every PPC in the land? Gain entry to the car park by offering a free service, but licensed then to rape and pillage the bank accounts of anyone who falls foul of their made up, heavily self-weighted rules and regulations.

    That's the great 'no cost' deal your MA has done for you.

    Wow, thanks so much for letting me know. I was very confused about how a no cost service could charge £12. I had misunderstood that no cost meant no cost not that there would be no upfront cost. If that makes sense. I had no idea there could be a parking management charge and assumed, as you so eloquently phrased it below, that the PPC got all their money from hapless carpark users. Which you say is in fact the case so my landlord, while correct on the no cost bit, is still deluded and idiotic.
  • scrib2074
    scrib2074 Posts: 25 Forumite
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    The residential carpark where I have been ticketed for "invalid permit" has only one entrance which is through an archway. I noticed on the way out that the PPC has no signage in the archway but the landlord does. They have put a sign which reads "Private Parking, 1-24 KT Flats Only". My flat number is within that range. I am assuming it's the landlord's sign as it is in red with white writing and totally different from those of the PPC. The previous PPC did have one of their signs in the archway but this was removed when the new lot moved in.

    I wondered if this sign gives me further permission to park (outside my tenancy agreement) and whether the fact it does not mention permits makes a difference to my case?
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