Smart Meters - Ask me anything!
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we switched on one of these low energy bulbs rated at 11 watts and the indicated consumption increased by 11 Watts, similarly it decreased by the same amount when we switched it off. I have a little gizmo which not only records Volts, Amps and Watts but also Power Factor. The power factor for this low energy bulb shows up as 0.6, Current 0.08 Amps. Volts (230) times amps = 18 Watts. I can't help but wonder if the meter which actually determines the consumption for billing purposes prefers to use 18 Watts rather than 11?
posted by Jacklx
It's not quite as simple as this, but if I remember correctly, the 18w is apparent power and to get the bulb power multiply this by the power factor - 230x0.08x0.6 gives 10.8w or 11watt.0 -
Currently we are with ovo pay as you go with a smart meter however we want to pay monthly instead but apparently they would have to take out the smart meter and put a ordinary one in then eventually they would put smart meter back in again ! This sounds crazy to me, does anyone know if there's another way round this?0
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OPENSPACES wrote: »I have recently been provided with a smart meter by BG but initially the info provided did not make sense. BG initially said it was faulty and agreed to replace it. The engineer turned up and I said read this and tell me does it make sense. No he said. He then got onto his boss who eventually said that smart meters don't work on the Collective Fix tariff as it not one theirs ie BGs. So with any Money Saving negotiated tariff they wont work ? Correct
So am i right in thinking you were with BG, they fitted a Smart Meter, then you used the MSE collective switch and now the meter is no longer 'Smart'.
That does indeed sound correct however, if one of British Gas's tariffs happen to be chosen by the MSE team at the next switch then it should ping back into 'Smart' mode.
In the next few years, before 2020 this won't be an issue as any smart meter will continue to be smart with any supplier that you so choose.
Hope that helped
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Neither.
A neutral tariff would be one that has a flat rate per unit, so that if you use twice as much you pay twice as much etc. A regressive tariff is one where you pay less than twice as much for twice as much fuel, and you pay more than half if you use half as much, that is to say any tariff with a standing charge. The problem is that it penalises people who use the least fuel in order to pay a discount to those who use the most, a disincentive to save fuel.
Conversely, with a progressive tariff the frugal users get the discount and the profligate users pay for it. Not only does it reward the people who save energy, but it helps those in fuel poverty too. The graph below shows what I mean, the blue line is a neutral tariff, red is regressive (see how above average users pay less), and the green line is progressive (the frugal users get the discount instead). In the example shown the average user pays the same either way.
That is really interesting, may i ask where you got this information? What's even more interesting is that the SMETS2 meters being rolled out next year to 2020 will provide a platform where progressive (and regressive for that matter) is possible.
It's functionality called Block Tariff pricing and even though it gives me a headache trying to fully understand it - it is a possibility for the future.
Basically you could have a structure where the first 100kWh (or whatever value - a block) in a billing period (a month) is charged at a low rate and anything used above that inside that month (another block) is charged at a higher (or lower) rate. There can even be a seperate block structure for different days of the week, say weekends would have just one block at a cheap rate.
Its hard to articulate well on a forum post, but all of the details of the meter's specification is freely available on the web, either search SMETS2 or GBCS. I warn you though it's not light reading :rotfl:
HOWEVER... put yourself in an energy suppliers shoes. How would you sell this complex tariff system and expect people to buy into it? Just food for thought. I don't think suppliers are keen in my honest opinion.
Hope this helped! 0 -
Further to my previous post on this subject. A friend has just had a 'smart' meter fitted, there is an indicator in the house which seems remarkably quick to respond, we switched on one of these low energy bulbs rated at 11 watts and the indicated consumption increased by 11 Watts, similarly it decreased by the same amount when we switched it off. I have a little gizmo which not only records Volts, Amps and Watts but also Power Factor. The power factor for this low energy bulb shows up as 0.6, Current 0.08 Amps. Volts (230) times amps = 18 Watts. I can't help but wonder if the meter which actually determines the consumption for billing purposes prefers to use 18 Watts rather than 11?
We hear that many users of 'smart' meters seem to think their electricity bills have increased since switching; could this be the cause of this?
On the first point, i'm not sure i follow exactly. The meter's in home display showed 11 watts increase with the bulb yes?
Did your gizmo measure 0.08 amps and you multiplied that with the voltage to get 18? Or did your gizmo actually measure 18?
Then later you say the meter prefers 18? Not sure i follow.
All i can say for sure is your gizmo measures power draw at source, whereas your meter measures it from the source of your house. Depending on the size, age, properties of the house etc. there is a lot more wire and therefore more resistance in the circuit between the meter and the bulb, so the two reading probably wont match.
I doubt very much there is truth to the tales of people saying smart meters on the whole are increasing the bills for electricity, simply because of the MID approvals that they have to attain. These independant test houses charge a huge sum of money to pass an exactly known amount of energy through a meter to see if it's measurement matches up with that amount. Inevitably though things break, so some meters out there might go a bit bananas during their lifetime, such is the nature of electronics.0 -
OPENSPACES wrote: »BG have told me that smart meters wont work on tariffs negotiated by third parties. Is that correct or not?
Unfortunately i have no idea if that is true or not. The reason being is that British Gas's chosen meters and back end system just might not have the ability to switch you to a particular tariff. This is a bane of the current set of meters out there in the UK. By 2020 *touch wood* these issues should all be ironed out but time will tell.
All i can say is if the third party tariff actually uses another supplier's tariff then yes that is almost certainly true.
Sorry i couldnt really help there
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OPENSPACES wrote: »I have recently been provided with a smart meter by BG but initially the info provided did not make sense. BG initially said it was faulty and agreed to replace it. The engineer turned up and I said read this and tell me does it make sense. No he said. He then got onto his boss who eventually said that smart meters don't work on the Collective Fix tariff as it not one theirs ie BGs. So with any Money Saving negotiated tariff they wont work ? CorrectSo am i right in thinking you were with BG, they fitted a Smart Meter, then you used the MSE collective switch and now the meter is no longer 'Smart'.
That does indeed sound correct however, if one of British Gas's tariffs happen to be chosen by the MSE team at the next switch then it should ping back into 'Smart' mode.
In the next few years, before 2020 this won't be an issue as any smart meter will continue to be smart with any supplier that you so choose.
Hope that helpedUnfortunately i have no idea if that is true or not. The reason being is that British Gas's chosen meters and back end system just might not have the ability to switch you to a particular tariff. This is a bane of the current set of meters out there in the UK. By 2020 *touch wood* these issues should all be ironed out but time will tell.
All i can say is if the third party tariff actually uses another supplier's tariff then yes that is almost certainly true.
Sorry i couldnt really help thereOriginally Posted by OPENSPACES
BG have told me that smart meters wont work on tariffs negotiated by third parties. Is that correct or not?
Surely this can't be right? Are you talking about different tariffs provided by BG or tariffs provided by other energy suppliers? It shouldn't matter which tariff you are on as long as you're with the same supplier who fitted your smart meter?
My smart meter (display) has always worked with collective fixes, (including MSE,) using the same supplier who fitted my smart meter. Your meter is just that. A meter.
What you're saying is BG smart meter (displays) don't have the ability to change you to a collective tariff with BG? This doesn't sound quite right. It shouldn't matter what tariff you are on, (providing it's a BG tariff.)
What's the point of getting a BG Smart Meter (and display) if they can't perform a simple task.
OPENSPACES - Did you switch to the BG MSE Collective?Fred - Where's your get up and go?
Barney - It just got up and went.
Carpe diem0 -
OK, My gizmo indicates power consumed with this bulb is 11 Watts which is what the bulb is rated at. It also indicates the current drawn as 0.08 Amps. What I am getting at is this:- the supplier seems to be pumping out 0.08 amps, at 230Volts, to get this bulb to work, i.e the supplier is using 18 Watts in order to do this. If I was a supplier I would be sorely tempted to bill the user for 18 Watts rather than 11. With the old rotating disc meters this would not be possible, but now we have these all singing and dancing 'smart' meters which must be capable of multiplying Volts by Amps it must be tempting to get as much back from the user as possible and I suppose it might be justified if I am correct in assuming the supplier has to produce 18 Watts. I understand this is why power suppliers insisted that Power Factor Correction had to be installed in factories etc. as the suppliers were losing out. It is true I'm not living in a factory but I have used my gizmo on more devices than the simple bulb and have discovered that many, albeit low power devices, exhibit a substantial Power Factor lag, this is particularly evident where the devices uses a 'switching' (high inductive) power supply to provide the 'working' voltages, e.g PC, printer, TV. I don't have a 'smart' meter yet but I suppose it is inevitable should I live long enough. It will be extremely difficult to actually check whether or not the readings ignore PF as any check would have to be done over a specific time period which would not be possible due to other equipment in the house switching itself off and on such as fridge, gas boiler etc. It would be interesting to know if those that set up, check and calibrate these meters do so with purely resistive loads where Power Factor would be Unity.0
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That is really interesting, may i ask where you got this information? What's even more interesting is that the SMETS2 meters being rolled out next year to 2020 will provide a platform where progressive (and regressive for that matter) is possible.
It's functionality called Block Tariff pricing and even though it gives me a headache trying to fully understand it - it is a possibility for the future.
Basically you could have a structure where the first 100kWh (or whatever value - a block) in a billing period (a month) is charged at a low rate and anything used above that inside that month (another block) is charged at a higher (or lower) rate. There can even be a seperate block structure for different days of the week, say weekends would have just one block at a cheap rate.
Its hard to articulate well on a forum post, but all of the details of the meter's specification is freely available on the web, either search SMETS2 or GBCS. I warn you though it's not light reading :rotfl:
HOWEVER... put yourself in an energy suppliers shoes. How would you sell this complex tariff system and expect people to buy into it? Just food for thought. I don't think suppliers are keen in my honest opinion.
Hope this helped!
Block Tariff billing was one of the reasons that OFGEM changed them many years ago when everyone was billed that way. They baffled most people. I remember a TV prog ( Ann Robinsons ) where she had that years Mastermind winner trying to understand a block tariff gas/leccy bill and he failed !
According to Theresa May a couple of days ago in her speech , most people cannot understand the deliberately complicated bills which are designed to confuse and she wants them simplified..
I think they are simple enough myself now but Block Tariffs certainly were not. Maybe the ones who understand a bill are the ones who pay the least..
On my rounds meter reading I speak to enough people to realise they do not understand what a KWH is..and that is the units we are all billed in.Maybe making this a bit simpler will help.0 -
My smart meters have worked ok with the BG collective.BG use the Landys and Gyr 470 E smart meter which is a very advanced meter and can be configured to work with anything whats thrown at it including Eco 7 and other Time Of Use tariffs like that.fredandwilma wrote: »Surely this can't be right? Are you talking about different tariffs provided by BG or tariffs provided by other energy suppliers? It shouldn't matter which tariff you are on as long as you're with the same supplier who fitted your smart meter?
My smart meter (display) has always worked with collective fixes, (including MSE,) using the same supplier who fitted my smart meter. Your meter is just that. A meter.
What you're saying is BG smart meter (displays) don't have the ability to change you to a collective tariff with BG? This doesn't sound quite right. It shouldn't matter what tariff you are on, (providing it's a BG tariff.)
What's the point of getting a BG Smart Meter (and display) if they can't perform a simple task.
OPENSPACES - Did you switch to the BG MSE Collective?0
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