Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Southernsoftie_jo
    • By Southernsoftie_jo 3rd Apr 17, 5:31 PM
    • 27Posts
    • 14Thanks
    Southernsoftie_jo
    IAS APPEAL....feedback appreciated
    • #1
    • 3rd Apr 17, 5:31 PM
    IAS APPEAL....feedback appreciated 3rd Apr 17 at 5:31 PM
    Hi

    I'm about to do my IAS appeal having been rejected by the PPC (no surprise), and would value some feedback before I go ahead. I'm aware there is some debate as to whether an appeal with IAS is of value or not and that it is highly likely to be rejected, however it seems the right thing to me to do.

    Background....my car was parked on a private estate in a designated parking bay, with no visitor permit displayed hence the ticket from U.K. CPM. It was sent through the post.

    The 'private estate' starts upon taking an exit off a roundabout which is public highway so it is not apparent that you have entered private land.

    There is a sign, which does contain the words private land and sets out the requirement of a permit for all users etc etc however it is at least 7 foot high and the writing is tiny. I can barely read it when standing underneath it, not to mention a few feet away from it in a moving vehicle having just turned off the roundabout.

    There is also a sign a few meters away from where the car was parked but it is also extremely high with small text and nance not legible from the car.

    There is a repeated sign on the property that is snapped in half. The entrance sign I took photos of a few weeks ago has now deteriorated further in as much as large parts of it are missing, so it isn't of robust quality either.

    Hopefully the following will now make sense. I've taken the angle of poor signage=no contract exists

    Thanks for your input......

    (Don't be too harsh, this was knocked together with a baby and toddler at my feet and I did my research before asking for help, including reading the newbie thread)

    Appeal.......

    As an Accredited IPC Operator UKCPM are required to adhere to the IPC Code of Conduct.

    UKCPM have failed to adhere to Section 2.1 of The Code, with regards their signage meeting minimum standards. The IPC Code states that its members 'must conform to the requiremnets as set out in Schedule 1' (Section 2.2)

    Schedule 1 states that 'Entrance signs should make it clear that the motorist is entering onto private land'

    The Code requires IPC members to 'adequately display any signs intended to form the basis of contract between the creditor and the driver'.

    Signage should 'be clearly legible and placed in such a position (or positions) such that a driver of a vehicle is able to see them clearly upon entering the site or parking a vehicle within the site'.

    It should 'contain text appropriate to the position of the sign and the relevant position of the person who it is aimed at'.

    The photograph evidence shows the entrance sign positioned on a pole, perpendicular to the road at a height of about 7 feet high. The sign is not of a large enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. The lettering is too small to be visible to a driver when considering the height of the sign and the likely position of a motorist (in their car) upon entering the site. This contravenes the IPC Code, Schedule 1.

    This entrance sign is on a 30mph road which is an exit off a roundabout - drivers will be passing this sign at a speed which renders it unnoticeable given its position and size.

    The sign near where the vehicle was parked is positioned in the same manner and of the same size as the entrance sign. It is not evident from this sign that private land has been entered because it is not clearly visible from the parking space. Letters look smaller when positioned up high and the angle of sight renders words less readable due to their perspective.

    The signage is in clear breach of the aforementioned points detailed in the IPC Code which UKCPM should adhere to.

    Furthermore, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 states a 'requirement for transparency' in establishing a contract and 'a trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent'.

    I also refer to 'Vine -v- London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' which found in favour of the driver, that they could not be deemed bound by the terms of the contract, where they were not clearly visible.


    In this instance a contract cannot be said to have been established between the UKCPM and the driver as the driver was not made aware of the terms or that the land was private property. In the absence of a contract, terms cannot be said to have been 'breached' and as such the £100 parking charge is unenforceable because it was not agreed to.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 17, 8:00 PM
    • 50,061 Posts
    • 63,458 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 3rd Apr 17, 8:00 PM
    • #2
    • 3rd Apr 17, 8:00 PM
    That will lose, then you will feel more on the back foot than now. There is nothing in that appeal for the IAS to even consider relevant. You wouldn't win at POPLA with that either, had this been a BPA firm.

    IAS is IMHO not worth trying unless there are unusual circumstances pointing towards a winning point. Losing this works against you. Far better to ignore them now, I know you don't want to hear that but it is true and you can't be judged by that decision as you tried an appeal then stopped when you researched the IAS and realised it's considered a kangaroo court.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 03-04-2017 at 8:15 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Southernsoftie_jo
    • By Southernsoftie_jo 3rd Apr 17, 8:06 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Southernsoftie_jo
    • #3
    • 3rd Apr 17, 8:06 PM
    • #3
    • 3rd Apr 17, 8:06 PM
    Thanks for your thoughts. Are you suggesting I ignore the rejection then and just don't appeal?

    I can see having two 'lost' appeals behind me isn't in my favour, but how does not engaging in the process help, if it were to get to a court case? Or are you thinking it so unlikely that it will it doesn't matter?!

    Would you mind explaining why my words so far would be likely to be an outright lose? Surely the adequacy of the signage is very relevant??

    Thank you for your time and thoughts
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 17, 8:30 PM
    • 50,061 Posts
    • 63,458 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 3rd Apr 17, 8:30 PM
    • #4
    • 3rd Apr 17, 8:30 PM
    The IAS will look for pictures of signs (any old pics the PPC produce) and will say that the signs were adequate. I've never seen an IAS appeal won on signage and can count on one hand the IAS wins I can recall AT ALL on here in all the years it's been tried.

    You would need much more than that to convince the IAS (that will definitely lose) but yes, in a real court hearing the Judge would consider that the adequacy of signage is very relevant.

    Are you suggesting I ignore the rejection then and just don't appeal?
    Absolutely. That's the advice in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread about not bothering with the IAS. If you must respond, use the response suggested there in a link to the Parking Prankster's blog about asking for alternative ADR (which you won't get). I wouldn't bother, personally.

    ...how does not engaging in the process help, if it were to get to a court case?
    Because engaging hinders you badly. A Judge will not know about the IAS and the PPC will paint it as an independent ADR and use the decision to add weight to their side.

    Whereas it is easy and can be more persuasive to support your defence rather than saying ''wah, it's not fair, I disagree with the IAS decision'' to actually explain to the Judge why you chose not to, seeing as it's run by the same people who run the IPC Trade body AND run Gladstones solicitors, both of which can be considered to have a vested interest in a charge not being cancelled.

    A defence can point this conflict of interests out:

    Following an unsuccessful appeal to the Claimant, I researched the matter online and discovered that the Claimant is a member of the Independent Parking Committee (IPC), an organisation operated by the same directors as Gladstones Solicitors. The same controlling minds also operate the Independent Appeals Service (IAS), the allegedly independent body appointed by the Claimant’s Trade Body, the IPC, so any appeal would have been doomed to failure.

    My research revealed that the IAS, far from being independent, is a subsidiary of the IPC, which in turn is owned and run by the same two Directors who also run Gladstones Solicitors. The individuals in question are John Davies, and William Hurley. This set-up is incapable of providing any fair means for motorists to challenge parking charges, as well as potentially breaching the SRA Code of Conduct. This claimant's Solicitors appear to pay little regard to the 'overriding objective' within pre-court protocols, issuing incoherent copy & paste claims with no due diligence.

    Further, a solicitor from Gladstones is in the public domain as having admitted that they do not charge enough money to bother to comply with the Practice Direction. Since their robo-claims usually cause frightened victims to pay, they cannot see the need:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/brian-hargreaves-to-claim-back-costs.html

    Helen Cook of Gladstones has been reliably quoted as stating: ‘‘We issue on a vast majority of claims, majority of which are not defended and therefore it is time consuming and not financially viable to send further particulars of claim.’’

    Due to this conflict of interests, the Claimant does not come to this matter with clean hands and indeed this Claimant moved from the British Parking Association Trade Body to the IPC in 2015, due to the fact they were losing most POPLA appeals and the IPC offered a questionable 'appeal' service. Bizarre results are reported, invariably favouring their members and putting consumers to proof of matters which they have no knowledge of - facts which in a real court of law would rest squarely as the burden of the Claimant to prove. I decided I would prefer a truly independent court to hear this defence and there was no reason so engage with anonymous assessors chosen by Mr Hurley and Mr Davies.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 03-04-2017 at 8:33 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Southernsoftie_jo
    • By Southernsoftie_jo 3rd Apr 17, 8:53 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Southernsoftie_jo
    • #5
    • 3rd Apr 17, 8:53 PM
    • #5
    • 3rd Apr 17, 8:53 PM
    Ok I think I get it. You're saying my points are valid, but just won't be recognised by the IAS people who always favour the PPC?

    Take the same points to a real court and I will be taken seriously?

    Ok so I think you've persuaded me to not appeal and ignore. I absolutely see your points but I'm one for following the rule book (kind of ironic I'm in this predicament) and it pains me to not follow the 'official' process. But if IAS are as bad as you say they are then yes I will save my time and energy as I have little of either!

    So do I expect the hysterical debt collectors letters next then?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 17, 8:56 PM
    • 50,061 Posts
    • 63,458 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 3rd Apr 17, 8:56 PM
    • #6
    • 3rd Apr 17, 8:56 PM
    Yes to all those questions - and keep all letters for up to six years. More than likely you will join the forum fun of defending a Gladstones claim later this year! On this forum, we've never lost one that I can recall thus far, in cases where the OPs followed the advice here and got our free assistance at defence and witness statement/evidence stage.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 03-04-2017 at 9:25 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Southernsoftie_jo
    • By Southernsoftie_jo 3rd Apr 17, 9:20 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Southernsoftie_jo
    • #7
    • 3rd Apr 17, 9:20 PM
    • #7
    • 3rd Apr 17, 9:20 PM
    Haha!! Look forward to it!

    Went to the place of the alleged contravention today and am truly enraged as the signs are terrible, in worse condition than a few months ago even. You truly cannot know you are on private land - it's just a road off a roundabout with flats on. I'm sure the only people who read the 7 foot high signs are those who eventually spot them after getting a ticket!

    Feel motivated to fight this all the way

    Thanks for your encouragement. No doubt I'll be back in a panic when the nasty layers roll in

    Anything I can do now to help things other than keep correspondence?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 17, 9:27 PM
    • 50,061 Posts
    • 63,458 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 3rd Apr 17, 9:27 PM
    • #8
    • 3rd Apr 17, 9:27 PM
    I would read the forum and/or the Parking Prankster's blog every day, looking for Gladstones cases so you become fully appraised of how to defend and what wins.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 4th Apr 17, 9:49 AM
    • 14,553 Posts
    • 22,897 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 4th Apr 17, 9:49 AM
    • #9
    • 4th Apr 17, 9:49 AM
    I would read the forum and/or the Parking Prankster's blog every day, looking for Gladstones cases so you become fully appraised of how to defend and what wins.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Absolutely concur with that advice. The number of people we advise to prepare well in advance who subsequently ignore it, adopt the ostrich position, hope it all goes away if they don't think about it ......... then 6 months later they're back 'help, help, yelp, I've got court papers' (along with 20 exclamation marks - as if they help!).
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Southernsoftie_jo
    • By Southernsoftie_jo 5th Apr 17, 12:05 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Southernsoftie_jo
    Ok will keep myself informed
    Is this the main forum I keep watch on?

    Would you mind explaining the likely process after I've ignored all the (hysterical) debt collection letters?

    Also I'd like to show you pics of signs

    Can't use GSV as estate not built when cameras went round

    Can someone remind me how to create a URL to post an image please?

    Thank you very much
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 5th Apr 17, 12:40 PM
    • 3,197 Posts
    • 3,240 Thanks
    DoaM
    Upload photos to a hosting site (e.g. Photobucket, Imgur, Tinypic etc.) then post links to them in a reply here.

    If the forum won't let you post links, change http to hxxp
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Southernsoftie_jo
    • By Southernsoftie_jo 5th Apr 17, 1:42 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Southernsoftie_jo
    http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/Jodyson18/library/?view=recent&page=1

    Thanks

    Hope link works

    The damaged sign would serve as the 'entrance sign' and the bottom of it is seven foot high

    I'm 5'6" and I can't even touch it

    The image of the parked car shows the sign closest to where I parked and again sign at least 7 foot high with tiny writing

    It's position made be believe it referred to parking bays beyond where my car was parked, particularly as it was the first visible sign

    Broken in two sign just another of the badly damaged signs on the estate!
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 5th Apr 17, 1:57 PM
    • 3,772 Posts
    • 5,334 Thanks
    Half_way
    quick question, are you a resident on this estate or visiting a resident?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Southernsoftie_jo
    • By Southernsoftie_jo 5th Apr 17, 2:05 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Southernsoftie_jo
    Neither, car was parked for a 10 min visit to access nearby stream

    Never been there before

    Probably a resident using one of those apps to catch people, unless was really unlucky as wasn't there more than 10 mins
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 5th Apr 17, 2:13 PM
    • 3,772 Posts
    • 5,334 Thanks
    Half_way
    that 10 minutes marked be of use to you, as there should be a 10 minute grace period to read signs, and judging by those signs the 10 minutes is needed
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Southernsoftie_jo
    • By Southernsoftie_jo 5th Apr 17, 2:23 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Southernsoftie_jo
    I could say I was getting the ladder to read the signs...

    Would my Mum be of any value as a witness statement for court defence as the photo is time stamped and she can confirm the time we arrived at her house - went straight there
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 5th Apr 17, 2:38 PM
    • 40,304 Posts
    • 80,504 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I could say I was getting the ladder to read the signs...

    Would my Mum be of any value as a witness statement for court defence as the photo is time stamped and she can confirm the time we arrived at her house - went straight there
    Originally posted by Southernsoftie_jo
    You should redact your VRN from those pics.

    It's a shame the sign in front of the car isn't one of the damaged ones, but there are several things wrong with it anyway. It is not saved by the Beavis case because the font size is too small and the £100 charge is not prominent. In addition, the premium rate 'phone number is prohibited.

    I think your Mum's witness statement would only be of value if she were present in court.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Southernsoftie_jo
    • By Southernsoftie_jo 5th Apr 17, 5:30 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Southernsoftie_jo
    The other thing is I wasn't driving, or even in the car

    I haven't raised this yet, but haven't stated that I was or wasn't driving this far
    (Had unsuccessful internal appeal, now ignoring until court papers arrive)

    I've looked into the info about revealing who was driving etc and I get that I never admit to driving (particularly as I wasn't) and tbh I don't really understand how to navigate this point

    can the fact somebody else was driving not me play to our advantage in any way?

    If so how? I'm confused about this one
    Last edited by Southernsoftie_jo; 05-04-2017 at 7:26 PM.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 5th Apr 17, 5:43 PM
    • 40,304 Posts
    • 80,504 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Delete the bit above where you tell the whole world who was driving!, and also in post 12!
    DO IT NOW!

    If the scammers don't know who was driving, then they have to rely on each and every part of the POFA 2012. If they fail to comply on even one point of the POFA then they cannot hold the keeper liable.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 05-04-2017 at 6:10 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Apr 17, 7:13 PM
    • 50,061 Posts
    • 63,458 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Btw I was not driving but I am the keeper. I'm dealing with it.
    Read other defences by searching 'no keeper liability POFA defence Gladstones'.

    All your questions will be answered by other threads, where you will learn so much more than on this thread.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 06-04-2017 at 12:55 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

530Posts Today

4,881Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Shana tova umetuka - a sweet Jewish New Year to all celebrating. I won't be online the rest of t'week, as I take the time to be with family

  • Dear Steve. Please note doing a poll to ask people's opinion does not in itself imply an opinion! https://t.co/UGvWlMURxy

  • Luciana is on the advisory board of @mmhpi (we have MPs from most parties) https://t.co/n99NAxGAAQ

  • Follow Martin