Taxis and Vat please help
DUNTAXI
Posts: 8 Forumite
in Cutting tax
As a Taxi firm you have a meter fitted in the car that has a rate set by the local council ,if you charge more than the amount shown on the meter you can be prosecuted by the council in court .
When you start you will be below the VAT threshold and not be liable to charge the consumer the TAX.
When you go over the limit they say you should then register but how do you charge the consumer the Tax ( the HMRC state that VAT is a tax on consumer spending ) when you cannot charge more than the meter rate or be taken to court by the Council for overcharging.
The tax surely does not come out of your pocket your business would struggle and go out of business .
Many councils set the rate with no mention to vat and some say where applicable ?????? which seems stupid it either is or isn't if it is the unregistered are overcharging .
When you start you will be below the VAT threshold and not be liable to charge the consumer the TAX.
When you go over the limit they say you should then register but how do you charge the consumer the Tax ( the HMRC state that VAT is a tax on consumer spending ) when you cannot charge more than the meter rate or be taken to court by the Council for overcharging.
The tax surely does not come out of your pocket your business would struggle and go out of business .
Many councils set the rate with no mention to vat and some say where applicable ?????? which seems stupid it either is or isn't if it is the unregistered are overcharging .
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Comments
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The tax surely does not come out of your pocket.
Yes, that's exactly how it works. BUT, at the same time, you can reclaim the VAT that you pay on fuel, stationery, vehicle repairs, etc., so it's not as bad as it seems.
Your point is exactly why lots of small businesses don't expand, as they have to stay small to stay under the threshold. Small business organisations have been lobbying for a much higher threshold for years.0 -
As Pennywise states, you would be restricted to charging the same amount for a journey but being VAT registered, 17.% of that charge will now go to HMRC thus reducing your operating profits.
You'd have to weigh up if the VAT you recover on tyres, fuel, snacks and repairs is more or similar to the VAT you pay over to HMRC for the fares you have taken.
Not Registered -
Charge £10.00 for journey. Costs £5.00 running costs = £5 profit.
VAT Registered -
Charge £10.00 for journey of which now £1.48 is VAT.
Costs are now £3.50 due to recovering £1 VAT on running costs.
Journey income = £10.00 - £1.48 VAT = £8.52
Costs = £4.00
Profit = £8.52 - £3.50 - £5.02 (an actual increase in profits of 2p)
But will all depend upon just what expenditure/overheads you have as to whether this basic calculation works in your favour or not.Anger ruins joy, it steals the goodness of my mind. Forces me to say terrible things. Overcoming anger brings peace of mind, a mind without regret. If I overcome anger, I will be delightful and loved by everyone.0 -
I have been involved in the business for 20 years and see people going bancrupt because of this .It is a tax on consumer spending and not a tax on the business . No passenger transport over 10 seats has to account for vat .0
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As Pennywise states, you would be restricted to charging the same amount for a journey but being VAT registered, 17.% of that charge will now go to HMRC thus reducing your operating profits.
You'd have to weigh up if the VAT you recover on tyres, fuel, snacks and repairs is more or similar to the VAT you pay over to HMRC for the fares you have taken.
Not Registered -
Charge £10.00 for journey. Costs £5.00 running costs = £5 profit.
VAT Registered -
Charge £10.00 for journey of which now £1.48 is VAT.
Costs are now £3.50 due to recovering £1 VAT on running costs.
Journey income = £10.00 - £1.48 VAT = £8.52
Costs = £4.00
Profit = £8.52 - £3.50 - £5.02 (an actual increase in profits of 2p)
But will all depend upon just what expenditure/overheads you have as to whether this basic calculation works in your favour or not.
these figures calculated with the vat formula show a loss
vat reg
charge £10 for journey x7 / 47 - £1.49 = 8.51
running costs are £2.50 x7 / 47 -£0.37
£1.49-£0.37 = -£1.12
£10.00
-£ 2.50
-£ 1.12
£6.38 less insurance ,tyres,maintainance ,road tax and wages
not much left then the vat is your profit and it is taken from you in tax you should not be expected to pay0 -
I have been involved in the business for 20 years and see people going bancrupt because of this .It is a tax on consumer spending and not a tax on the business . No passenger transport over 10 seats has to account for vat .
I know a few people who are full-time taxi drivers and they'd never get anywhere near the 64K VAT threshold. If you have a few plates then it'd be possible to do this, but then you're onto a different level of business entirely.
I've heard of multi-car owners who lease their vehicles to their drivers and because the individual drivers are well within the threshold they don't have the problem. If the owners are over the threshold they have to charge VAT to the drivers, but then it's a commercial decision and from the drivers point of view they just look at the monthly amount they have to pay."A child of five could understand this. Fetch me a child of five." - Groucho Marx0 -
If vat is a tax on consumer spending then how is it that the HMRC expect the taxi firm to pay the vat out of their takings without being able to get it from the consumer first ?
I have seen people with 5 cars and employing people off the dole having to pay £10,000 a year out of their own pocket becuse they have not been able to charge it to the consumer or face prosecution by the Council for over charging.0 -
It's not just taxis, it is ALL small businesses, including hairdressers, shops, florists, cafes, many of whom will have similar if not higher overheads than a taxi driver. Whether it is fair or logical, or not is irrelevant - it is the law. The only way to change it would be to lobby your MP which is what people have been doing for years - if enough people do it, then the politicians may listen. This is nothing new, VAT has been with us for around 30 years and the rules for the average, typical, self employed person or small business have not changed in that time.0
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Because of taxi legislation metered taxis cannot charge vat but have to pay it over.I have written to vat central office and they do not answer the question either .Just had a meeting with a vat inspector who initially tried to point out that this is how it is , when I pushed him on different reasons why it is wrong he said "I cannot go against central office policy but if you went to a vat tribunal maybe it would change " .If is has not been challenged before it is worth appealling.0
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Yup, get your point.
Sounds like it's worth a campaign to get taxis and other forms of public transport to be zero rated - this would solve the problem, let you register for VAT, provide zero rated services and still be able to claim back VAT back on your purchases.
After all, flights are zero rated, so why not all public transport? Environmental card to play and all that.
I know I've had clients claiming VAT back on taxis before in their accounts before I've pointed out that you can't actually do that - although the "company" will be VAT registered, the individual drivers won't be.
How does this apply to customers with a credit account with the taxi company? Presumably they could be charged an "administration fee" for their credit facility? I had this debate with a VAT inspector years ago where he suggested that I could charge VAT on invoices I sent out for re-charging to clients flights as expenses as it was "part of the service"."A child of five could understand this. Fetch me a child of five." - Groucho Marx0 -
2 taxis on the rank one registered one not meter is £2.00
first one gets £2.00
second one gets £1.70 after he takes out the vat and gives it away
most taxi tarrifs do not state anything but some say inclusive but I asked all the council's in Wales where I live and out of 22, 18 replied saying that vat is not included in the metered fare0
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