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Civil Enforcement LTD Hospital Fine
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Thanks again Coupon, will reply today.0
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http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Dannymc1309/media/image 1_zpsdurffvhj.png.html?o=1
http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Dannymc1309/media/ntk 1_zpsyvg6igtf.jpg.html?o=1
http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Dannymc1309/media/ntk 2_zps8smhfjw4.jpg.html?o=2
Dear xxxxx,
Please find attached a copy of the Notice to Keeper that the operator advise was issued to you on 5th December 2016.
At the bottom of this Notice, it is stated: “It is the driver’s responsibility to pay this PCN, which has been issued under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.”
In this instance, the operator has provided a copy of the Notice to Driver and Notice to Keeper, both of which can be seen to make mention of POFA (2012). The strict timescales as advised in Schedule 4 have been adhered to, as the Notice to Keeper was issued 40 days after the Notice to Driver was left on the vehicle giving the driver 28 days to pay or appeal the charge.
We note you state that you did not receive the Notice to Keeper. Unfortunately we are unable to ascertain whether mail has or has not been sent or received by either party. As it is not currently a requirement of the Code that the operator sends mail using recorded delivery we cannot advise there to be a breach of the Code.
As previously advised, based on the information you have provided there has not been a breach of the Code in this instance and therefore we are unable to assist you further.
Yours Sincerely,
{Text removed by MSE Forum Team}
AOS Investigations Team
British Parking Association
Email: [EMAIL="aos@britishparking.co.uk"]aos@britishparking.co.uk[/EMAIL]
Web: www.britishparking.co.uk
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The PCN number is visible on the NTK.
Did they send you a picture of the PCN on your car as opposed to something in a bag on a car. I see nothing to prove a PCN was left on a specific vehicle with a unique VRN.
It is strange how so may NTKs seem to get lost in the post.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.
All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
If the PPC cannot prove they sent it, they cannot claim that it was sent as they have no evidence. (It doesn't have to be recorded delivery - a certificate of posting from the PO is all that's needed). The intended recipient can validly state it was not received - they don't have to prove it as you cannot prove a negative.0
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I will fix this now, apologies!The PCN number is visible on the NTK.
No they emailed me a photo of a red bag on my car, but as you say nothing to show it stayed there afterwards or as detailed as VRN etc. This is then followed by an NTK which was not received and according to our friend at the BPA they don't have to prove otherwise haha.Did they send you a picture of the PCN on your car as opposed to something in a bag on a car. I see nothing to prove a PCN was left on a specific vehicle with a unique VRN. It is strange how so may NTKs seem to get lost in the post.If the PPC cannot prove they sent it, they cannot claim that it was sent as they have no evidence. (It doesn't have to be recorded delivery - a certificate of posting from the PO is all that's needed). The intended recipient can validly state it was not received - they don't have to prove it as you cannot prove a negative.
My thoughts exactly. If only common sense could prevail?0 -
I will fix this now, apologies!
No they emailed me a photo of a red bag on my car, but as you say nothing to show it stayed there afterwards or as detailed as VRN etc. This is then followed by an NTK which was not received and according to our friend at the BPA they don't have to prove otherwise haha.
My thoughts exactly. If only common sense could prevail?
What I'm getting at is there is no proof that the PCN was left on your car, and there is no evidence to show that is your car in that picture.
No photos of your VRN means it could have been the scammer's car they took pictures of, or mine, or anyone else's.
They need to prove your car was in that location at the time of the alleged event, and they haven't.
It might not actually be your car at all for all we know.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
What I'm getting at is there is no proof that the PCN was left on your car, and there is no evidence to show that is your car in that picture.
No photos of your VRN means it could have been the scammer's car they took pictures of, or mine, or anyone else's.
They need to prove your car was in that location at the time of the alleged event, and they haven't.
It might not actually be your car at all for all we know.
Good points, they have sent an image of a blue bonnet but no VRN/registration.0 -
http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Dannymc1309/media/image 1_zpsdurffvhj.png.html?o=1
http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Dannymc1309/media/ntk 1_zpsyvg6igtf.jpg.html?o=1
http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Dannymc1309/media/ntk 2_zps8smhfjw4.jpg.html?o=2
Dear xxxxx,
Please find attached a copy of the Notice to Keeper that the operator advise was issued to you on 5th December 2016.
At the bottom of this Notice, it is stated: “It is the driver’s responsibility to pay this PCN, which has been issued under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.”
In this instance, the operator has provided a copy of the Notice to Driver and Notice to Keeper, both of which can be seen to make mention of POFA (2012). The strict timescales as advised in Schedule 4 have been adhered to, as the Notice to Keeper was issued 40 days after the Notice to Driver was left on the vehicle giving the driver 28 days to pay or appeal the charge.
We note you state that you did not receive the Notice to Keeper. Unfortunately we are unable to ascertain whether mail has or has not been sent or received by either party. As it is not currently a requirement of the Code that the operator sends mail using recorded delivery we cannot advise there to be a breach of the Code.
As previously advised, based on the information you have provided there has not been a breach of the Code in this instance and therefore we are unable to assist you further.
Yours Sincerely,
{Text removed by MSE Forum Team}
AOS Investigations Team
British Parking Association
Email: [EMAIL="aos@britishparking.co.uk"]aos@britishparking.co.uk[/EMAIL]
Web: www.britishparking.co.uk
cc: David Dunford at the DVLA again
Dear {Text removed by MSE Forum Team},
Can I get this straight? This beggars belief.
On behalf of the BPA, officially, are you saying and copying into the DVLA, that you think a NTD followed by a NTK, with one line saying “It is the driver’s responsibility to pay this PCN, which has been issued under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012” means that this is a POFA PCN? Despite none of the wording from paragraph 8 appearing at all, no statutory warning of keeper liability, etc? Such as 8(2)f to name but one glaring omission.
We now have the BPA agreeing with the debt collector that keeper liability applies to a (very obviously) non-POFA PCN. That is inexcusable misinformation. If Parliament had wanted to allow keeper liability to apply just by the use of one sentence which 'can be seen to make mention of POFA (2012)' then they would have written just that into the statute and dispensed with all the other wording.
Have you ever read paragraph 8 of Schedule 4? If not, or if you do not understand the statute, please refer this formal complaint to your manager. I still await a proper response and will copy in the DVLA each time and this entire email trail will be passed on to the DCLG as an example of the 'professionalism' of the BPA.
Please confirm if your response is the BPA's official and final reply to my complaint. If not, I require that my complaint is escalated to Steve Clark, who I believe does know a non-POFA PCN when he sees one and would not suggest this is one.
yours sincerely,PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Thanks again Coupon.0
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Latest reply
Dear xxxx
Thank you for your reply.
An effective ‘Notice to Keeper’ within the meaning of POFA 2012, must meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Act. In particular, paragraphs 6 (1) (a) and 8 (2), if a Notice to Driver has previously been issued at the time of the parking event.
We note that you state that the Notice to Keeper does not contain the requirement as outlined in section 8(2)f of POFA which states that the notice: “must warn the keeper that if, at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to keeper is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges (as specified under paragraph (c) or (d)) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,
the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;”
Having reviewed the Notice to Keeper, it can be seen to state: “In England and Wales if after 28 days from the date of this notice this PCN has not been paid or you have not provided us with the name and current address for service of the driver, we may have the right to recover from the registered keeper
all unpaid amounts due.”
As previously advised, there has not been a breach of the Code in this instance and we are therefore unable to assist you further with your enquiry.
Yours Sincerely,
{Text removed by MSE Forum Team}
AOS Investigations Team
British Parking Association
Email: aos@britishparking.co.uk
Web: https://www.britishparking.co.uk0
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