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  • FIRST POST
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 1st Feb 18, 8:10 PM
    • 20Posts
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    abcdef1234
    Redundancy Dismissal due to Health and Safety
    • #1
    • 1st Feb 18, 8:10 PM
    Redundancy Dismissal due to Health and Safety 1st Feb 18 at 8:10 PM
    Hello,

    I am representing myself at a tribunal later in the year and I was wondering if someone could help me?

    I believe I was dismissed by redundancy due to raising health and safety issues. Without getting into whether I will win my case or not does anybody know how I should be valuing my case?

    At first I believed I could only be compensated for actual losses such as the basic award etc but as this is a health and safety case could I be entitled to compensation on top of this?

    I have a feeling I have severely under valued my case?

    Any advice welcome and thank you in advance.
Page 1
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 1st Feb 18, 8:31 PM
    • 4,552 Posts
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    sangie595
    • #2
    • 1st Feb 18, 8:31 PM
    • #2
    • 1st Feb 18, 8:31 PM
    You don't want to get into it, but you'd like us to tell you if you will win and what you could claim? Really?
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 1st Feb 18, 9:11 PM
    • 20 Posts
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    abcdef1234
    • #3
    • 1st Feb 18, 9:11 PM
    • #3
    • 1st Feb 18, 9:11 PM
    I'm not sure I understand what you have taken from my request for advice but I was looking for a short answer without getting into the details of my case.

    I am not asking if I will win, I think you have misunderstood my post.

    I am asking if I can only recuperate losses as it was a redundancy or whether I could also submit a compensation claim as I was dismissed due to raising health and safety concerns.

    Do you need to know the whole details of my case to determine if I can increase my remedy figure to include compensation or just losses incurred due to being unemployed?

    I was hoping to get some free advice due to me representing myself and not boring readers with the whole specifics to my case.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 2nd Feb 18, 10:08 AM
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    Comms69
    • #4
    • 2nd Feb 18, 10:08 AM
    • #4
    • 2nd Feb 18, 10:08 AM
    I'm not sure I understand what you have taken from my request for advice but I was looking for a short answer without getting into the details of my case.

    I am not asking if I will win, I think you have misunderstood my post.

    I am asking if I can only recuperate losses as it was a redundancy or whether I could also submit a compensation claim as I was dismissed due to raising health and safety concerns.

    Do you need to know the whole details of my case to determine if I can increase my remedy figure to include compensation or just losses incurred due to being unemployed?

    I was hoping to get some free advice due to me representing myself and not boring readers with the whole specifics to my case.
    Originally posted by abcdef1234
    No-one can know without more details, in particular in relation to length of employment and whether the dismissal could relate to a protected characteristic.


    Some basic details would help!


    If your previous employer hasn't offered to settle, I'd be concerned. Self representing is often a challenge in of itself, yet alone the actual case.
    • mariefab
    • By mariefab 2nd Feb 18, 2:06 PM
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    mariefab
    • #5
    • 2nd Feb 18, 2:06 PM
    • #5
    • 2nd Feb 18, 2:06 PM
    The 2 reasons you give for your dismissal makes it difficult to help.
    A redundancy dismissal means that fewer employees were needed.
    Dismissal due to raising H&S issues would be automatically unfair, if proven, and may result in an additional award for injury to feelings.

    So, what happened? Did you raise a H&S issue and all of a sudden your role was declared to be redundant?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 2nd Feb 18, 2:15 PM
    • 2,420 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #6
    • 2nd Feb 18, 2:15 PM
    • #6
    • 2nd Feb 18, 2:15 PM
    The 2 reasons you give for your dismissal makes it difficult to help.
    A redundancy dismissal means that fewer employees were needed.
    Dismissal due to raising H&S issues would be automatically unfair, if proven, and may result in an additional award for injury to feelings.

    So, what happened? Did you raise a H&S issue and all of a sudden your role was declared to be redundant?
    Originally posted by mariefab


    Not necessarily fewer employees. In terms of redundancy the role, not the person, is redundant. They could recruit 200 other roles at the same time.


    Whistleblowing dismissal would not be 'automatically unfair', as the OP may have been there under two years and be dismissed for a different reason.
    • mariefab
    • By mariefab 2nd Feb 18, 9:28 PM
    • 294 Posts
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    mariefab
    • #7
    • 2nd Feb 18, 9:28 PM
    • #7
    • 2nd Feb 18, 9:28 PM
    An employee doesn't need two years service if dismissed for raising a H&S issue, whistleblowing, or any of the other dismissals in the 'automatically unfair' list.
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 2nd Feb 18, 10:08 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    • #8
    • 2nd Feb 18, 10:08 PM
    • #8
    • 2nd Feb 18, 10:08 PM
    Thanks for your response. To cut a long story short:

    1st round of redundancies - scored high and survived.

    In the mean time objected work due to safety concerns.

    2nd round of redundancies - scored really low, even in repeat categories from previous year and was made redundant. Raising concerns was perceived in a negative way rather than positive.

    Had this issue used against me multiple times during scoring which lost me my job by one point. Errors made on scoring criteria.

    My schedule of loss only includes actual losses with no injury to feelings. Anyone representing themselves knows the hard work and stress this puts you under which is why I'm hoping if I can prove my scores were dramatically lowered due to H&S issues, then I would hope the tribunal could make some award for this.

    They have acted dirty all the way through which has made me more determined to battle on. Lie after lie.

    Hope this makes it clearer. oh, and I worked for the company for over 2 years.
    Last edited by abcdef1234; 02-02-2018 at 11:32 PM.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 3rd Feb 18, 8:41 AM
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    sangie595
    • #9
    • 3rd Feb 18, 8:41 AM
    • #9
    • 3rd Feb 18, 8:41 AM
    Just because your score in a previous year was higher doesn't mean that a lower score at a later time is unfair. Things change, even if it is only that you are competing against a set of peers who also score well - those who didn't are already gone.

    What is your actual evidence that raising H&S concerns was the reason for the loss scoring?

    There is no award for injury to feelings in unfair dismissal.
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 3rd Feb 18, 9:44 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Thank you for your reply Sangie595

    Documented Question:

    Was your scoring heavily weighted on the employees reluctance to carry out said job?

    Answer given by scoring manager:

    It was.

    Like I say sangie595, I am just looking to see if I could add injury to feelings if I can prove my scoring was reduced due to raising health and safety issues.

    I am aware of what the tribunal can and cant do, I am aware that scoring 12 months later may result in different scores and I am aware the Judge cant make them change the scores.

    Where I am told I am capable of carrying out a task one year and not the next is inexplicable to me. This is measurable and should have been taken into account. It is not a subjective opinion of a scorer.

    Like I have said, whether I will win or lose is a separate debate, I would simply like to know that if I can prove to the judge that I have been unfairly scored due to raising health and safety issues then am I still just limited to actual financial losses received or can I add injury to feelings.

    I already know unfair dismissal does not allow you to add injury to feelings.

    If anybody has a yes or no answer to adding injury to feelings on a HSE case that would be much appreciated?
    Last edited by abcdef1234; 03-02-2018 at 9:50 AM.
    • mariefab
    • By mariefab 3rd Feb 18, 10:14 AM
    • 294 Posts
    • 157 Thanks
    mariefab
    Sangie is right, (and I was wrong) there's no award for injury to feelings in unfair dismissals of this kind.
    Any potential award for injury to feelings would be for a detriment short of dismissal.

    In your case the detriment would be awarding you lower scores in the redundancy process on the grounds of your raising the H&S issues, if you can prove that was the reason.

    A very recent case establishes the potential for an injury to feelings award for Part V cases. In your case it would section 44 of Part V. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/18/section/44

    http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKEAT/2018/0151_17_3001.html
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 3rd Feb 18, 12:40 PM
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    abcdef1234
    Thank you so much.

    That's a lot to take in so I shall give it a good read later.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 5th Feb 18, 9:58 AM
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    Comms69
    An employee doesn't need two years service if dismissed for raising a H&S issue, whistleblowing, or any of the other dismissals in the 'automatically unfair' list.
    Originally posted by mariefab
    Indeed, but can he / she prove that the reason for dismissal was that and not any number of other reasons that it could be?
    • martinsurrey
    • By martinsurrey 5th Feb 18, 12:05 PM
    • 3,327 Posts
    • 4,077 Thanks
    martinsurrey

    I believe I was dismissed by redundancy due to raising health and safety issues. Without getting into whether I will win my case or not does anybody know how I should be valuing my case?
    Originally posted by abcdef1234
    something no one else has asked, were your health and safety issues valid and reasonable, and could you prove that in court?

    I could tell my boss I'm not doing any filing as the risk of a paper cut is too high, doesn't mean they would be be wrong to mark it against me if it came to redundancys.
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 5th Feb 18, 4:01 PM
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    abcdef1234
    Yeah you are right martin. Its a tricky one to prove.

    All I can say is that measurable objective facts have been reduced from one scoring year to the next 12 months later. The only thing that changed is the reluctance to carry out said job which never went ahead anyway and I was never asked to do again. No discipline came of it which is hard for me to understand as I have had it raised against me on 4 separate occasions during the scoring. If it were not a valid excuse then I should have been disciplined for insubordination and mention that if this was issue then they should have followed company disciplinary guidelines but didn't so a 25% increase on compensation should be applied.

    I can also add that every single team member declined to work in the said conditions until we were basically threatened that our jobs were at risk if we didn't carry out the work. I stood firm in my believing that the job was unsafe and was severely punished for it during the scoring process. I'm not money hungry but if its the only way to make the company pay for their wrongdoings then I will fight for what I believe in and seek the justice deserved. I'm happy to win or lose this case it does not bother me. All that bothers me is they are held accountable for their wrongdoings.

    I think I can prove unfair dismissal due to scoring issues but I imagine the HSE issues will be 50/50.

    I'm not going to push for any further increase in compensation but only mention it see what the judge says. I have also left out the basic award for compensation so I will looking to increase this by number of years served X £479.

    Another point to note is that this will be the third time the department has been taken to an employment tribunal yet they continue with this behaviour. The other two occasions they settled just before they went into the tribunal.

    Sorry for not getting into specifics but in the off chance that this is read by them I don't want to give them any clues as to how I am going argue my point on the day. i have given them full disclosure but I do not want them to know the errors they have made and come up with some excuse as to why that happened.

    Thank you again for all of your input it is much appreciated. I'm just hoping I get the right result. Its been hard and with hindsight I would not put myself through this again.
    • martinsurrey
    • By martinsurrey 6th Feb 18, 9:12 AM
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    martinsurrey
    Yeah you are right martin. Its a tricky one to prove.

    All I can say is that measurable objective facts have been reduced from one scoring year to the next 12 months later. The only thing that changed is the reluctance to carry out said job which never went ahead anyway and I was never asked to do again. No discipline came of it which is hard for me to understand as I have had it raised against me on 4 separate occasions during the scoring. If it were not a valid excuse then I should have been disciplined for insubordination and mention that if this was issue then they should have followed company disciplinary guidelines but didn't so a 25% increase on compensation should be applied.
    Originally posted by abcdef1234
    Changes from one scoring to another are not automatically wrong, you are being judged against others who survived the first round, maybe they are being harsher on everyone (higher thresholds).

    The fact they didn't discipline you is NOT proof that your concerns were valid, you need more than that, and your entire claim hinges on that fact.

    If you cant prove that your health and safety claim was valid and reasonable, they can justifiably claim that you were marked down for refusal to carry out reasonable tasks.

    If you can prove it, then you need to prove that your score was marked down as a direct result of this.

    The onus is on you to build this case.
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 6th Feb 18, 11:14 AM
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    abcdef1234
    Thanks, yeah its whether or not they see my concerns were valid. If I prove they are valid they have already admitted that the scores were reduced because of this so I don't need to worry about the proof of reduction in scores. I just need to prove that my concerns were valid. Also I never flat out refused to go I asked for them to put the issues right and I would carry out the job. All documented by emails, all included in the bundle so far.

    They even had me believing I flat out refused to go at one point as they used the term so much.
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 8th Feb 18, 4:50 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Hello and Thank you to all who have took the time to reply,

    I would like to ask one more thing (or a few around the same subject). I submitted a schedule of loss but to try and be reasonable and keep the case from getting to a tribunal a kept my figures low and didn't include the basic award for unfair dismissal.

    I know it looks sloppy etc, but would it harm my case if I submitted a revised schedule of loss and explain that I didn't include some elements of compensation?

    A lot has came to light this week and I feel very positive that my case is stronger than it was before having had a friend look through a few things for me. Everything has been exchanged, witness statements, evidence, bundle, the lot.

    I would like to basically rip up my schedule of loss and start again but would this look bad? Could I submit my amendments on the day?

    Apologies for all ????'s.

    Thanks.
    • mariefab
    • By mariefab 9th Feb 18, 1:41 AM
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    mariefab
    Just rip it up and do it again. Tribunals can be quite forgiving of these sorts of minor errors by unrepresented employees. After all the schedule doesn't become relevant to the Tribunal until after you win your case.
    Call it a revised schedule of loss.
    Add a note with an apology and saying something about just discovering your mistake/s.
    Send it off as soon as possible. Do not wait for hearing date or you may find that the Respondent objects and time could be wasted, by the Judge, deciding whether to accept it at that late stage.
    • abcdef1234
    • By abcdef1234 15th Feb 18, 3:43 PM
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    • 2 Thanks
    abcdef1234
    Hi All,

    I can be a little more open and honest now I think. I didn't want to give too much about my case away so close to my tribunal and was looking for last minute panic advice. Sorry.

    I have attended my tribunal this week. It went well in some areas and not as expected in others. It was certainly an eye opener and i'm glad its over.

    I have been told that I can expect a decision from the judge in the post within 28 days.

    Win or lose I will let you all know how it went for your own curiosity, if you have any.

    Thank you again for your responses and advice.
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