Electric cars

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  • AdrianC wrote: »
    I don't doubt that you did get a substantial discount off list. Well done. BTW, you may want to redact a little harder to remove your name from it.

    That invoice does rather prove my point, though - it clearly shows the (before gov't grant) list price of £30,670, with a £7,880 discount off it (taking the VAT into account). If you also factor the gov't grant in, that's a 30% discount, 25% without the grant. That's pretty bloody sizable by any measure, and can only be indicative of real-world demand.

    It seems that yours is one of just three iSigs which have been registered in the UK, all Q90, with another 19 Sig Q90s on battery lease, and another 77 Sig R90s on lease. There are a total of less than 1,000 40kWh Zoes of all specs.
    https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?q=renault+zoe

    Its just the way Renault Work, there was a 4 month wait when I ordered mine, thats now up to 7 months. Not the sign of a car that is hard to shift.
    Over 100k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,713
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    edited 3 January 2018 at 12:15PM
    Joe_Horner wrote: »
    Are you for real?

    It's "no problem" increasing the UK'so electricity supply by nearly 1/3? Remember, it needs to be generated and distributed and to avoid problems that has to be based on peak demand.

    Yes I am. I (and others) have already explained that we have enough spare night time generation to meet the demand.

    It's not a 1/3rd increase, it's more like 1/5th when you remove the petrol / diesel refinery leccy needs.

    We've added that much additional RE generation in the last 10yrs, so adding it over 10-30yrs is clearly not a problem.

    The current leccy infrastructure (as explained previously) can already cope with the added demand.

    So, the only problem is one of additional demand at peak times, and that is already sorted, as kit is available:

    Option 1. Time of day leccy rates, so nobody will choose to charge their cars between 4pm and 8pm. Such an option exists today, and is ideal for PV households with batts (hence why I noticed it).

    It offers a cheap night rate 5p, and day rate of about 12p, and a weekday evening rate of about 25p (I think I've recalled the figures correctly), so those with EV's would naturally not choose to charge their cars in the week day evening. I believe car charging can be set by default to avoid specific times, so the car can be plugged in, but may wait before charging.

    Option 2. V2G (vehicle to grid), this is a very good option, as it makes the car battery capacity a form of national storage and demand peak lopping. Also car batteries appear to last longer if they undergo regular charge cycles and avoiding sitting at full all day.

    Demand in the UK during the day, in the winter is typically around 40GW with an evening peak of 50GW. We could wipe out that whole peak with 'just' 10m cars discharging 1kW for 4hrs. They would then top up on cheap leccy later at night and receive a nice payment for peak demand leccy supplied.


    I'm beginning to think that you aren't listening to the answers, nor aware of the real issues / solutions. Instead you seem determined to throw up red herrings and misleading information.


    [Edit - Apologies to AnotherJoe, I see you've already supplied all the above information, I should have finished reading the thread before replying to the false statements made. M]
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189
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    Stageshoot wrote: »
    Its just the way Renault Work, there was a 4 month wait when I ordered mine, thats now up to 7 months. Not the sign of a car that is hard to shift.
    It's the sign of a car that they don't keep in stock, so every order goes straight to the Flins factory. Just because there's a factory lead time doesn't mean there's UK demand.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,713
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    NigeWick wrote: »
    I have to disagree. EVs are already cheaper to run and service. Once batteries are below about £100 per kWh very few people will want to buy a fossil burner as EVs will be cheaper to buy up front too.

    It seems that the difference in price between Tesla's shorter and longer range lorries shows that the company is already at or close to US$100 per kWh.

    You may be right, certainly about demand, the problem may be with supply.

    BTW, the Tesla truck pricing of $150k (300 miles) and $180k (500 miles) actually suggests a battery cost of only $75/kWh, or at least an anticipated cost in 2019, so as you say, prices are tumbling.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,713
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    edited 3 January 2018 at 12:32PM
    AdrianC wrote: »
    Umm, you do know they haven't actually built a single real truck yet? They ANNOUNCED the concept just over a month ago...

    And when they are being built and supplied, you'll simply cut and paste your comments and amend them to say model Y, or pick up truck.

    Let's be honest here, you're not actually interested in a genuine discussion based on facts are you, as demonstrated by your entirely false opening statements in Dec that model 3's weren't being delivered.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • AdrianC
    AdrianC Posts: 42,189
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    It's precisely because I am interested in facts and reality that I keep shooting down your regurgitated marketing guff.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,713
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    edited 3 January 2018 at 12:35PM
    Joe_Horner wrote: »
    It's "no problem" increasing the UK'so electricity supply by nearly 1/3? Remember, it needs to be generated and distributed and to avoid problems that has to be based on peak demand.

    In case you are interested, this handy graph shows that RE generation is now supplying nearly 10% more grid demand than 4yrs ago.

    Edit - This press release issued today has even more information, if you are interested:

    For the first time in 2017, more than half of the electricity generated in the UK came from low-carbon sources, Carbon Brief analysis shows.

    So even using your gross 30% figure, that's doable in 12yrs, or around 8yrs for a truer net figure.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • NigeWick
    NigeWick Posts: 2,714
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    AdrianC wrote: »
    Umm, you do know they haven't actually built a single real truck yet? They ANNOUNCED the concept just over a month ago...
    And the first trucks (I can't bring myself to write semis) will be along in 2-4 years as long as the company doesn't run out of cash. That does not mean the battery technology is not available.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
  • zeupater
    zeupater Posts: 5,353
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    Tammykitty wrote: »
    I wonder how my employer would react if I had an electric car and the couldn't get into today, due to a power cut last night?


    I know of a few areas where the power was off for 3+ days after previous storms.
    Hi

    They'd probably react in exactly the same way that they did the last time there was a spate of refinery or haulage industrial action which caused fuel 3+ days of shortages and long queues at the filling stations which had stock - importantly, not just in a 'few areas' , but across the entire country! ... we can all find negatives if we put the ultra-pessimist hat on & dig deep enough ...

    We get more than our fair share of outages, but even then they're really rare & most are over within a handful of hours. This is less common recently as the DNO have moved the transformers from a 'H pole' into an enclosure as for some 'unknown' reason the damp leaves from a massive oak tree which it was located next to (/under the canopy) had some 'unforeseen' impact on the insulators which tripped the supply ... but then again it is an example of how the infrastructure is continually becoming more robust ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    B)
  • almillar
    almillar Posts: 8,621
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    Tesla seem to be doing well with the range issue (and thats with executive size saloon cars) so why cant other manufacturers?

    Tesla aren't doing anything particularly clever with the range issue. They're stuffing more batteries into their cars, and charging more for them. The clever part compared to most cars is that they're designed from day 1 NOT to have engine and tank, but motor(s) and batteries, allowing better packaging.
    You can have a 41kWh Renault Zoe, or a 80kWh (ish?) Tesla. The Tesla has more than double the batteries. Guess what it costs?! Guess how far it goes?
    I wonder how my employer would react if I had an electric car and the couldn't get into today, due to a power cut last night?

    Good, topical question. If you know a storm is coming, you would maybe have nipped to a rapid charger to get some juice on the way home. Or, if there's no power in your home, drive somewhere to drive your car. People queue at the pumps when a fuel price rise is announced, so this is similar.
    They're the Renault lists, taken straight from Renault's website

    Yes. But that's not what the person, the owner of the car, you're arguing with, paid. An actual owner is quoting £19,400 and 200 miles, and I believe them. I drove a 22kWh Zoe for 2 years, and I don't think *I* would regularly get 200 miles out of a 41kWh, with my driving, but please take personal experience over the quoted figures that you're pointing out are rubbish.
    it clearly shows the (before gov't grant) list price of £30,670

    This forum is full of people (including yourself IIRC) stating that list price is rubbish, so why are you so keen on it now? Have you ever paid list price on a car?
    Anyway, we've gone from 'Zoe doesn't go that far' to 'Zoe isn't in demand in the UK because they're discounted' - can you just admit that the driver of a car knows more about it than you do? No-one's claiming to be driving a Tesla truck here...
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