Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?
Comments
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Forgot to mention Flogas want 68ppl if i want topping up now as im not in a contract0
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Forgot to mention Flogas want 68ppl if i want topping up now as im not in a contract
Hi creameggy - and welcome to the Bulk LPG forum!
The good news is that you are out of contract with Flo!
Where are you, please? And roughly how much (in litres) do you use a year? Do you have an above-ground tank, or is it buried?
Have you put your postcode into the UKLPG website (here) to get a list of their members who supply your area? If you post a list you may well get comments on the ones that come up - plus possibly some other suppliers, or ways to buy your LPG.
Needless to say friendly Flo's offer to fill you up for 68 p per litre takes the p as a 'fair' price currently is somewhere in the high 40s.
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Hi all,
Just moved into a house with a Calor LPG bulk tank in the garden - there's 30% left in the tank - so need to know ins and outs of whole situation. I've tried to read quite a few of the posts, but the situation seems to change frequently.
Can someone please summarise the situation and give me some advice?
I haven't signed a contract with any firm yet, but Calor are coming for a visit!!!0 -
Hi all,
Just moved into a house with a Calor LPG bulk tank in the garden - there's 30% left in the tank - so need to know ins and outs of whole situation. I've tried to read quite a few of the posts, but the situation seems to change frequently.
Can someone please summarise the situation and give me some advice?
I haven't signed a contract with any firm yet, but Calor are coming for a visit!!!
Welcome to the forum - and the wonderful world of LPG!
Please see my very recent post to creameggy - and particularly:Where are you, please? And roughly how much (in litres) do you use a year? Do you have an above-ground tank, or is it buried?So if you can get the previous owner's usage that would help (as many companies will charge different prices depending on usage). Calor might tell you an approximate figure.
Have you put your postcode into the UKLPG website (here) to get a list of their members who supply your area? If you post a list you may well get comments on the ones that come up - plus possibly some other suppliers, or ways to buy your LPG.
You then have 3 options:
negotiating and signing a 2 year contract with Calor
OR
negotiating and signing a 2 year contract with another supplier who is willing to supply you - they will buy the tank off Calor or replace it.
OR
buying the tank off Calor and finding suppliers who will fill it ... and negotiating the best price you can for each fill.
Basic reading on domestic bulk LPG supply is the OFT faqs.
You might want to check that your tank meets the current codes of practice, as interpreted by Calor (see here).
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Hi All
Apologies for such a lengthy delay since my last posts, I have been on holiday (somewhere warm where they don’t need LPG heating!). I thought I should update, and possibly seek some more advice
To recap: We were/are with Flogas, who quoted us a record-breaking 73ppl for a fill. Their minimum delivery was 900 litres. On shopping around, we found JGas who offered low 40s (can’t remember right now the exact rate) but they came to visit our site and couldn’t take us on due to the positioning of our tank. It is underneath the canopy of a very large tree. Unfortunately we had by now run out of gas. We were leaving someone to stay in our house with no heating, hot water or cooking gas
In response to a couple of earlier replies, we couldn’t really take the tree down as it is so large (I think maybe 80feet or something, it towers over our 2 story home by about 50% more!). To complicate matters our boiler really needs replaced, so we had to make a fairly urgent decision. If we even part-filled our tank with LPG now, we were effectively committing ourselves to LPG going forward, as we’d be putting in a new gas boiler. But we didn’t really have the option to change to say an oil boiler as that would take time to arrange; time we didn’t have.
So our options became – pay 73ppl to Flogas but don’t sign, or see what they were offering for a contract. Unfortunately we couldn’t use the option of another supplier as the tank was illegally sited, and due to the fact we were going on holiday and had to restore hot water and cooking somehow, we didn’t have time to fight over having the tank moved. Long story short, we were over a barrel. Flogas quoted us 51ppl fixed for 6 months, and also told us over the phone that it wouldn’t go up by more than 8p in the first year. So (please don’t hate me!) we agreed to sign a new contract with them. Our thinking was this – we will get a fill now to do us through winter, then before our 6 months is up, we can get another fill at 51p. We’ll eke this out as much as possible, and the first year will be “reasonable”, relatively speaking. We’ll then be slightly stuck in the second year but the get-out clause in the supply agreement about unjustified or short-notice price increases would be our back-up plan. And in any case, it would still be a lot cheaper than the 73ppl price we are currently being quoted.
So we have had the tank fill, but I’ve not yet paid or signed the contract, because the supply agreement didn’t mention the restriction on increases for the first year. I called today and the guy denied he’d said that. What he claims he told me is that “going on the last year” it won’t go up by more than 8ppl. I’m not surprised; of course I’m not, this is the F***** word we are talking about here. I have however asked him to send me out a new supply agreement as the covering letter had several errors in it. He also told me that they don't offer caps, no suppliers do. Well reading this thread, that seems like a lie :cool:
Whilst I was on the phone, I asked him if they owned the tank. He confirmed they did, and that they fitted it. So I mentioned that the tank had been illegally sited, as per another supplier. He asked who said that, but I didn’t tell him. (might give them ideas about who to buy next :eek: ). So apparently the installation team are going to be calling me back. <taps fingers impatiently>
I’m not sure what to do now? Can anyone tell me, is it clear that my tank (an underground one) is illegally sited? I have a feeling Flogas will tell me it’s not. That of course leaves me in an even worse position. They own it; they will be refusing to move it; but another supplier won’t take it on. If they do have to move it, who will have to pay for the change to the supply pipes? What are the rules about moving it. Where can an overground tank be fitted? Is this different to an underground tank. What are the implications of the fact they have been filling the tank up to now?
And I suppose – should I therefore refuse to sign the contract, get them to move the tank, then transfer? Or will they refuse to move it unless I sign a contract? Or should I just sign the contract, use as little gas as possible, and fight about moving the tank towards the end of my contract, if we are still in this house?
Sorry for the waffle. I just have to hope we can move house soon and avoid this situation again!!0% card was £1126.91 / Now £1502.37
AFD March 2/15 NSD March 2/11 :T
Other debts paid since 1/1/14: £17,0050 -
Hi mfmaybe, thanks for the useful and comprehensive feedback and update.
What a sorry state of affairs. But then, as it involves the "Friendly Supplier", that will come as no surprise to many readers of this and other threads.
While it appears to me that there are a number of potential courses of action open to you, I think it would be useful (and most productive) to consider the points you raise in the context of the recent (and in my opinion) somewhat weak OFT report into Off-Grid Energy (see http://www.oft.gov.uk/OFTwork/markets-work/completed/off-grid) in which they astonishingly decided to do, errrr, little or nothing concrete in respect of LPG supply. I would specifically highlight the closing two paragraphs of the report at this stage:
7.13 We are consulting on our provisional non-reference decision and invite relevant views. Responses should be emailed to
[EMAIL="offgrid@oft.gsi.gov.uk"]offgrid@oft.gsi.gov.uk[/EMAIL]
by 5pm on Friday 18 November 2011. Alternatively, they can be sent to:
Off-Grid Energy Market Study
Office of Fair Trading
Fleetbank House
2-6 Salisbury Square
London EC4Y 8JX
7.14 We will consider any responses received and will publish our final decision on a MIR in due course.
Given the specifics of your situation, I would therefore be inclined to write a pretty strongly-worded letter to the OFT, setting out the facts of the matter. However, I get the distinct impression that (especially when it comes to LPG), the OFT can be a little "selective" in what they choose to hear, so in addition to voicing your concerns directly to the them, I might be advisable to ensure that you also send your letter to your constituency MP, Charles Hendry MP and possibly some or all of the other MPs I listed in my post giving my initial reaction to the OFT report (here) a couple of weeks back. Strike while the iron is hot: MPs are watching this one so there is no better time to give them all the ammunition they need to stamp out this sort of malpractice.
For good measure, I would also be inclined to make a formal complaint to Consumer Direct. While they are highly unlikely actually to do anything about it, the more individual complaints about a particular issue that are lying on file if and when the OFT start digging further, the better
So, with all this in mind, here are a few pertinent extracts from the report which are directly relevant to your situation, and the OFT's view:
To recap: We were/are with Flogas, who quoted us a record-breaking 73ppl for a fill. Their minimum delivery was 900 litres. On shopping around, we found JGas who offered low 40s (can’t remember right now the exact rate) but they came to visit our site and couldn’t take us on due to the positioning of our tank.
The OFT recognised that this has become something of an issue, and, in consultation with the HSE, included the following in their report:
Or, put another way, if an existing supplier wants to bend the rules and turn a blind eye to any potentially dangerous issues in respect of tank siting in order to retain your business, they are free to do so, irrespective of any non-compliance or other safety issues identified as part of a site survey or risk analysis undertaken by an incoming supplier. You can ask the new supplier to consider your existing suppliers position and reasons for continuing supply, but they are not bound to accept those reasons (and experience shows they invariably won't).Health and safety compliance
5.43 In considering the ease of switching under the Orders, several suppliers and consumers noted that the location of tanks, in positions that are not compliant with industry codes of practice on health and safety, can prevent switching. For example, building work or plant growth close to a tank may have rendered it non-compliant over time. A new supplier can exercise its rights to refuse to take on a non-compliant tank and in this case will not accept the new customer until the tank is repositioned in a compliant manner.
5.44 Suppliers indicated that the proportion of non-compliant tanks among customers wishing to switch appears substantial. Suppliers also indicated that customers' reluctance to re-site the tank (or the impossibility of re-siting the tank in a compliant manner) hinders switching, as the customer will generally prefer to avoid the costs and disruption of tank relocation by remaining with their existing supplier who will still supply the tank. The incidence of such situations suggests that the policy of companies differs so that whilst one supplier may be willing to take on or continue supplying a tank, others may not; and it is often only when a customer tries to switch, triggering a formal assessment of the tank, that the issue is highlighted.
5.45 We discussed this matter with the Health and Safety Executive (HSE). When approached for a view, the HSE has advised customers to explore the reasons why an incumbent supplier considers the tank compliant and that these points could then be put to the new potential supplier. The new potential supplier is then in a position to consider this information but is not bound by another supplier's opinion and can make their own judgements.
Now, for those of you with a legal mind, that could raise some very interesting liability issues if an existing supplier continued supply to a tank known to be non-complaint and it happened to go bang (actually, given the nature of LPG, "bang" should probably be written in very large red capitals, with several following exclamation marks. !.)
One of many "black marks" for the OFT report, I fear.
So our options became – pay 73ppl to Flogas but don’t sign, or see what they were offering for a contract...
Long story short, we were over a barrel. Flogas quoted us 51ppl fixed for 6 months, and also told us over the phone that it wouldn’t go up by more than 8p in the first year. So (please don’t hate me!) we agreed to sign a new contract with them...
So we have had the tank fill, but I’ve not yet paid or signed the contract, because the supply agreement didn’t mention the restriction on increases for the first year. I called today and the guy denied he’d said that. What he claims he told me is that “going on the last year” it won’t go up by more than 8ppl. I’m not surprised; of course I’m not, this is the F***** word we are talking about here. I have however asked him to send me out a new supply agreement as the covering letter had several errors in it. He also told me that they don't offer caps, no suppliers do. Well reading this thread, that seems like a lie :cool:
Not exactly a "lie", but certainly weasel words. The days of a "hard cap" are sadly long gone, but (and this is a big but), most suppliers write into their contract a term that permits the customer to terminate supply in the event of price rises exceeding a pre-determined limit (typically something like 3.5ppl in any six-month period). In fact, without any such clause, any contract is likely to be considered unfair under consumer law as it will allow for "unfettered" price increases. And guess what? No Flogas contract that I have ever seen includes such a clause (and I think I've seen most of the contract terms offered by our "Friendly Supplier" over the past few years). Indeed, in February 2005, the OFT even pulled Flogas up for not having any such clause in their contract. But reserved judgement. And did nothing further in respect of those particular terms. Which does not fill me with hope for the current OFT position on pricing, viz (and they even have the impertinence to try to defend their inaction here):
5.59 In our view, consumers should either have some form of contractual protection against price variation (for example price limits) or they should be able to cancel the contract on reasonable terms if the price varies significantly. If the price change reflects underlying costs, for example wholesale LPG prices, then customers will not necessarily be able to find a better deal elsewhere, and they may stay in their existing contract. If, however, suppliers offer competitive introductory prices but then unilaterally increase the price significantly mid-way through the contract term, customers may choose to cancel.
5.60 With this in mind, we have reviewed a sample of current contracts provided by suppliers.
5.61 We note that, prior to the CC Orders, the OFT had considered similar issues before and as part of this work had agreed undertakings with some bulk LPG suppliers to address concerns identified with a number of contract terms. The OFT had identified concerns regarding clauses where it considered that suppliers might be able to vary prices, but reserved judgment pending further evidence of reaction to the revised terms proposed. We consider that the complaints received in the last year may suggest that certain prevailing contract terms could result in consumer detriment.
5.62 The OFT has therefore reviewed the terms of current customer contracts against previous undertakings and in light of complaints received. In conclusion:• Our review has identified concerns that some suppliers' contract terms may not be entirely consistent with existing consumer protection legislation. In particular, we have some concerns relating to the clarity and fairness of termination rights and we are engaging with the major suppliers to discuss these..."the OFT had considered similar issues before and as part of this work had agreed undertakings with some bulk LPG suppliers to address concerns identified with a number of contract terms. The OFT had identified concerns regarding clauses where it considered that suppliers might be able to vary prices, but reserved judgment pending further evidence of reaction to the revised terms proposed."Whose reaction? The suppliers?"some suppliers' contract terms may not be entirely consistent with existing consumer protection legislation"??
Not entirely consistent? In blatant contravention would be closer to the mark!
I know I am "biased" - I am an LPG user, and I therefore have a very specific viewpoint on all this, but really, this whole business does not have the taste of impartiality. I fear that (given the nature of LPG) that the OFT consistently defer to the "expert opinions" offered by the suppliers and the UKLPGA on all matters LPG, and fail to apply much in the way of critical or rational thought.
What really surprises me (and it surprises me that I'm even thinking this, let alone saying it publicly) is that three of the "Big Four" while tending to be a little more pricey than market average (and that is perhaps understandable, with their bigger overheads, top-heavy management structures and commitments to shareholders etc etc), offer prices that seem to be (generally) in the right sort of ballpark (even if it is a big ballpark) and contracts that are at least legal (if painfully verbose).
But there there is one of the Big Four that seems to think it has a divine right to charge what ever it can get away with and to ride rough-shod over any moral or legal contractual obligation it may have. And no one anywhere who is in a position to do something about it seems to notice or to care!0 -
This is very interesting!
On 20th October (2 days after the release of the OFT report into Off-Mains Energy supplies) Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd, Labour) submitted the following written question to Charles Hendry MP, Minister of State (Renewable Energy), Energy and Climate Change (Wealden, Conservative):
Q. Chris Ruane:
and got a concilliatory, weak and anodyne response from Charles Hendry (see here).To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what steps his Department plans to take in respect of the Office of Fair Trading report into the liquefied petroleum gas industry.
Clearly, Mr. Ruane is not one to give up on this lightly, so yesterday, he had another go:
Q. Chris Ruane:
To which, he got a similarly unhelpful reply:To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to (a) regulate the Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) industry and (b) monitor the difference in prices of LPG across the UK.
A. Charles Hendry:Regulation is typically introduced where natural monopolies arise. While the gas and electricity transmission and distribution networks are natural monopolies, this is not an issue for LPG supply where the UK has an open and competitive market with regulation by the UK's independent competition authorities who are the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) and the Competition Commission.
As I noted in my Statement of 18 October, OFT has just published its findings from its market study into the off-grid energy market that includes the market structure and pricing of LPG. The study followed an investigation in 2006 by the Competition Commission into the supply of domestic bulk LPG. The recent market study has found that the Orders made subsequent to the market investigation appear to have substantially increased switching rates for individual tank customers but the OFT will keep the effectiveness of and compliance with the Orders under review. The study highlighted that many pricing concerns with LPG tended to stem from contract terms. The OFT has considered consumer protection issues and is engaging with suppliers to seek improvement in the clarity of contract terms, particularly concerning cancellation and switching rights./URL][URL]http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2011-10-31a.76897.h&s=LPG#g76897.r0[/URL"...this is not an issue for LPG supply where the UK has an open and competitive market with regulation by the UK's independent competition authorities who are the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) and the Competition Commission."
Oh dear Some people will believe anything they are told.
It seems quite clear that despite compelling evidence to the contrary and the many letters that have been sent to him by readers of this forum and I am sure by others, Mr. Hendry is either too mired in the idealogy of a free market, or simply unwilling/unable to comprehend the issues being faced by us "little people" to do much of anything at all useful on this matter.
Mr. Ruane, however, seems to take a different view entirely
Given that MPs are usually very reticent (for obvious reasons) to discuss specific issues such as this with anyone who is not one of their constituents, I would urge anyone and everyone reading this who is a constituent of Mr. Ruane to contact him and give him all the factual information he needs to kick up a right-royal stink about the LPG market and the OFT report, before the whole sordid affair gets swept under the carpet and forgotten about several more years.0 -
Whilst I was on the phone, I asked him if they owned the tank. He confirmed they did, and that they fitted it. So I mentioned that the tank had been illegally sited, as per another supplier. He asked who said that, but I didn’t tell him. (might give them ideas about who to buy next :eek: )
Apparently DCC have made an offer in the past to Jgas but they refused, i don't know specific dates etc, it was just a conversation i had with one of their drivers once. I would have thought the competition commission wouldn't allow it because then all the LPG business in Scotland would be conducted by Calor and Flogas but they're proving to be as useful as the OFT.0 -
Another good and relevant written question from Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd, Labour) and the corresponding written answer of 1st November 2011. I think we are starting to see a distinct pattern here.
Q. Chris Ruane
A. Charles HendryTo ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 20 October 2011, Official Report, column 1116W, on liquefied petroleum gas, what assessment he has made of (a) regional differences in the price of liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) and (b) the extent of competition in the supply of LPG within each region.The Department does not hold data on the regional differences in the price of liquefied petroleum gas (LPG). The price of LPG is affected by a range of factors, including crude oil prices, refinery capacity, stock levels, distribution costs and increased demand for heating during winter.
The Competition Commission's 2006 investigation into domestic bulk LPG found that there were no distinct regional or local markets with prices being broadly similar in all regions of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. However, the CC did identify some features of the market that led to weak competition. As a result of its findings the CC made two orders. The Office of Fair Trading has a statutory duty to keep under review undertakings and orders following a Market Investigation Reference to the CC and consider whether these have been or are being complied with. In its recent off-grid energy market study, the OFT noted that the emerging picture on compliance with the orders is broadly positive and that the collective market shares of the big four suppliers had fallen from 90% to 85% while 10 smaller suppliers had grown their customer base by 10% or more since the orders were introduced. The OFT will keep compliance with the orders under review.0 -
Apparently DCC have made an offer in the past to Jgas but they refused
There are quite a few "micro" independents out there that Flogas could probably swallow up without many people really noticing - as things stand, I certainly wouldn't bank on the OFT/CC noticing, let alone actually intervening.
Remember also (as has already been mentioned a few times on this thread) some of these small independent suppliers actually depend on Flogas to provide the delivery infrastructure anyway. This puts Flogas is in a terrifyingly powerful position - a few carefully timed hikes in the price it charges to these smaller independents could potentially drive them out of business overnight if Flogas so wished.
However, my biggest concern as far as major Flogas expansion goes, would have to be Countrywide (one of the larger independent suppliers). As of April this year, a joint agreement was signed (who knows what is actually in that agreement?) and Countrywide LPG became "Countrywide powered by Flogas", enabling Countrywide to substantially expand their business outside of their existing core delivery area. What happens if/when Countrywide decide they would be better off out of this troublesome market and/or Flogas make them an offer that they simply can't refuse? Given the existing "synergy" of this operation, I could quite easily see the OFT/CC treating any such outcome as a "special case" and allowing it through subject to a few meaningless and toothless conditions.0
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