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  • FIRST POST
    • CurlyKel
    • By CurlyKel 14th Sep 17, 11:49 AM
    • 1Posts
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    CurlyKel
    this thread has now finished thank you all for your replies
    • #1
    • 14th Sep 17, 11:49 AM
    this thread has now finished thank you all for your replies 14th Sep 17 at 11:49 AM
    this thread has now finished thank you all for your replies
    Last edited by CurlyKel; Today at 9:43 AM. Reason: deleting thread
Page 1
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 14th Sep 17, 12:35 PM
    • 3,723 Posts
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    sangie595
    • #2
    • 14th Sep 17, 12:35 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Sep 17, 12:35 PM
    I wondered if anyone can give me any advice.


    I have been employed at an NHS doctors surgery for over 5 years now. I was taken on by the Practice Manager (who was in her late 60's at the time) on the premise they were looking for someone she could start passing down to and hand over. I took a wage deduction of over £7 per hour. Taking my wages down to just above national minimum - but I had something to prove and was happy to do so as I knew that one day I would be running the place so it was a small price to pay. I was told I would have a wage review in 3 months.


    Its now been over 5 years and I have not had 1 single wage review or appraisal. I have been asking my boss for an appraisal since 2013, and even asked for one in front of the doctor that owns the place at the beginning of this year, after explaining that I still have never had one even though I am meant to have them every year and still nothing happened.


    The practice is very very behind with the times and I for all of these years have tried so hard to improved things and make suggestions but my practice manager would never let me do anything - I believe rather than becoming a help I then became a threat, but as she employed me in the first place it didn't make sense.


    A few months ago, a guy was employed that has come in to "do stuff" "improve things" bring us into the 21st century. Everything he is putting in place and suggesting I have been asking to do and suggested for years. Everytime he comes into my room and says look what I have done, and I say, I said to do this and no one would listen to me.


    Now yesterday afternoon my practice manager brings in a lady into my room and introduces her to me as her new assistant. To say I was absolutely gutted is an understatement.


    So it is clear there is no intention of making me practice manager, not even an assistant.


    What do I do? - Can I do anything? I feel like I have been completely taken advantage of for 5 years, I work so hard and its all been for nothing. Do I leave, do I have grounds for constructive dismissal, grievance? I don't know what to do.


    I don't want to take them to court, honestly all I want to do is leave immediately and it not stop the help I get towards my rent that's all. I know I would have no problem finding a job so as long as I know I cant get into trouble I am happy to leave before I find a new job. I have been working since I was 11 years old so im not shy of work!


    I pulled out my contract of employment last night and it says in it;


    Disciplinary and grievance procedures - these procedures are attached in appendices 3 and 4. - There were no attachments and there is no such thing as an employment policies and procedures folder at my work so I can even go by our policies. It is a very old practice still in very old times, and without offending - the staff are all quite old too, so no one likes change, no one wants anything to be changed or improved, which is why I have struggled all these years.


    It is very difficult for me to know how to move forward as my problem is with my practice manager and unfortunately the only person above her is the doctor that owns the place and they have a very close relationship, I think my PM has worked here for over 30 years or something. But because of this I have always been respectful and would never want anyone to feel like i'm taking over, but in fairness its why I was taken on in the first place.


    my first thoughts are my PM is going away next week for 2 weeks. So when she was away I was going to have a meeting with the dr who owns the surgery and I was going to have a resignation letter written up and say I was handing in my notice on the grounds of constructive dismissal.


    I do not want to take them to court, but I am a single parent of two children and I receive housing benefit and tax credits so I think If I get the sack or just leave they may stop or delay my benefits - I am hoping if I do it this way round it will be ok? another thing I don't know about.


    I am sorry for the length of this thread I could of gone a lot more, I have been bullied in this place by my PM on many occasions, all of which I have noted, used to leave in tears a lot of the time last year, but I sucked it up and got on with it because I had come this far and I just thought she is being horrible to me because maybe I was taking her job, or she didn't want to leave now etc.


    I suffer with OCD and anxiety - in fact last week my PM came into me to explain all the mistakes I had been making, and she rolled her eyes and shaked her head from side to side as she said to me and yeeesssssssss I know you have your OCD and you have to do everything quickly but your making too many mistakes. - Anyone with OCD knows we don't make mistakes lol - they weren't my mistakes, they were the doctors - I showed her these mistakes weren't mine and she said nothing just took the paper from me put it on her desk and carried on with her work - the fact she had mocked me for having OCD - yet they weren't my mistakes was upsetting.


    anyhooo - I said I wouldn't go on and I am so I will stop.


    I am so nervous to do anything as I don't know what I should do but I am also too upset to stay.


    What are my options? Please Please help so I do not have to put up with this anymore - Thank you
    Originally posted by CurlyKel
    Sorry, this isn't going to be the answer you want. Find another job.

    The employer has paid you the amount they agreed to pay for the job that you have. Your expectations that this might become something more are only that - your expectations. They are not obliged to offer you anything more than the pay that you are entitled to for the job that you do. There is no constructive dismissal going on here at all. So by all means resign, but be aware that if you are bluffing, don't - they'll let you resign, and that's your problem because you won't win a tribunal on anything you have stated here, and you get no benefits if you resign either.

    If you were bullied last year, and we have only your word for it, it is too late to raise it now.

    And sorry but if mistakes were made then they need to be corrected and pointing them out is not mocking your mental health.

    You've said twice at least that you don't want to"take them to court" but at the same time you can't afford to resign and you won't get benefits. The two things are inconsistent. Especially since you appear to be trying to suggest bullying and discrimination ( which there doesn't appear to be any current evidence of) is the cause of your resignation and throwing around claims of constructive dismissal - which you definitely can't claim if you are just planning on sneaking in behind your managers back whilst she is on leave and threatening to resign on the spot. It takes an awful lot to claim constructive dismissal - including having completed the full grievance procedure, and an actual repudiatory breach on the employers part ( which doesn't appear to exist).

    If you think that this will lead you to money, think again. You are taking an enormous risk because there doesn't seem to be any claim here, and you can be certain of only one thing - you won't have a reference.
    Last edited by sangie595; 14-09-2017 at 12:37 PM.
    • Nicki
    • By Nicki 14th Sep 17, 1:05 PM
    • 7,506 Posts
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    Nicki
    • #3
    • 14th Sep 17, 1:05 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Sep 17, 1:05 PM
    You were recruited because they thought you'd be a good person to take over from the PM when she retired.

    For whatever reason, you failed to win their trust and respect. If you had done, they would have implemented your suggestions for change. The fact that they did implement them when someone else suggested them a few years later, tells me you didn't have bad ideas but does suggest you don't have the interpersonal skills you need to win this promotion.

    If they think you are making mistakes, even if these in reality are the doctor's errors, they are going to be thrilled if you resign! If you think they might beg you to stay, I doubt you are correct.

    Sounds like a job which has run its course to me. Like Sangie I don't see any legal claim against the employer. Why don't you look for something else at the level you'd like, and reflect on what went wrong this time round to make sure it doesn't happen again in the new role.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 14th Sep 17, 2:21 PM
    • 5,867 Posts
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    TBagpuss
    • #4
    • 14th Sep 17, 2:21 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Sep 17, 2:21 PM
    Unfortunately I agree with Sangie and Nicki, there isn't anything in what you've described which would give rise to you being able to claim for constructive dismissal.
    Not getting the promotion or advancement you expected is disappointing, but as long as you are paid NMW or over, the fact that they have not given you any pay rises is not illegal.

    Your best bet is to start looking for a new job, and when you find on, hand in your notice and move on.

    Meanwhile, rather than constantly telling the person they have brought in that you'd already suggested the things he is proposing, why not mention to him that the practice doesn't carry our regular appraisals or salary reviews and that there is n formal feedback process, and suggest that he recommend introducing them.

    It won't help you, if you leave, but it may be helpful for whoever comes after you.

    If you decide to meet with the Doctor while the PM is away, rather than handing in your notice (which would leave you stuck, financially) you could take the opportunity to raise the fact that you have not had a pay rise or salary review for 5 years.

    Do your research first so you can say you have looked into it and £xx is the going rate for your type of role. Ask him whether he can consider a pay rise or at least commit to a formal review in the very near future. If he asks, as he may , why you are not speaking to PM you can explain that you have raised the issue with several times but have never been given an appraisal or review. It may make no difference, but you will at least have made the request.

    Don't threaten to leave unless you are prepared for this to be accepted, and remember that it is generally easier to find work when you are currently employed, than if you resign and then start looking.
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 14th Sep 17, 2:33 PM
    • 1,892 Posts
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    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • #5
    • 14th Sep 17, 2:33 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Sep 17, 2:33 PM

    I don't want to take them to court, honestly all I want to do is leave immediately and it not stop the help I get towards my rent that's all. I know I would have no problem finding a job so as long as I know I cant get into trouble I am happy to leave before I find a new job. I have been working since I was 11 years old so im not shy of work!
    Originally posted by CurlyKel

    If this is the case, then just give a month's notice and find another job. Any housing benefit will not be affected as you will find another job before the month is up.

    There's obviously a risk that you won't get another job, whereupon you will lose all benefits and not be paid, but it's your choice whether to take that risk.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 14th Sep 17, 2:48 PM
    • 15,791 Posts
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    FBaby
    • #6
    • 14th Sep 17, 2:48 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Sep 17, 2:48 PM
    You did get one thing, that is experience supporting the PM, so could you look at applying for PM Assistant jobs, or maybe even PM after 5 years experience? If you leave, you'll have to explain why, which might make things more difficult.

    If I were you, I would stay, look for that job and then try to encourage them to give you a good reference.
    • ThemeOne
    • By ThemeOne 14th Sep 17, 4:37 PM
    • 1,108 Posts
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    ThemeOne
    • #7
    • 14th Sep 17, 4:37 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Sep 17, 4:37 PM
    I would register with some agencies which deal with practice manager roles and/or start networking and put your energies into finding something else.

    Unfortunately there is no right to promotion, whatever you were promised.
    • keepcalmandstayoutofdebt
    • By keepcalmandstayoutofdebt 14th Sep 17, 6:24 PM
    • 2,832 Posts
    • 1,479 Thanks
    keepcalmandstayoutofdebt
    • #8
    • 14th Sep 17, 6:24 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Sep 17, 6:24 PM
    5 years was a long time to wait so I can feel for you.

    I would be direct, it's time. Perhaps they thought later on you were not wanting promotion?

    Complete opposite I was hood winked into a lesser paid job (laminator type admin) but it was only weeks into they started saying to a very confused me I was capable and would I do half of the next role up... (and all the issues that would create had me re-accessing in a heart beat, forget just holding on for a few years)

    Could it still not be the Assistant is intended to be yours, still at later date.

    If you were not fit for purpose - you wouldn't have 5 years behind you so try be positive.
    "If you are caught in a rainstorm, once you accept that you'll receive a soaking, the only thing left to do is enjoy the walk"
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 14th Sep 17, 6:41 PM
    • 296 Posts
    • 266 Thanks
    scd3scd4
    • #9
    • 14th Sep 17, 6:41 PM
    • #9
    • 14th Sep 17, 6:41 PM
    You may have been used............now do you. Look for another job while they pay you. Get a new job. Give your notice and move on.


    Like employee's........you also get crap lying bosses.

    People like this never put anything in writing.
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 14-09-2017 at 8:11 PM.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 16th Sep 17, 4:20 PM
    • 18,689 Posts
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    jobbingmusician
    I thought I'd just contribute my views.

    I think Nicki's views may unintentionally be a bit harsh. There is no proof that you failed to win their trust and confidence. I suspect that what happened is that you were either deliberately oversold your job, that you were simply overlooked in the current (assumed) recruitment of a PM Designate, or that the new job was advertised and you failed to apply.

    Depending on your relationships in the workplace, I would be tempted to raise a grievance and vent to the partners what you have told us. If you can keep your cool and raise the grievance as a discussion point, reassuring people that you want to put your case but you are not the sort of person who holds grudges, then you have nothing to lose by explaining to the PTB what has happened from your POV.

    However, there is a bit of me that feels that if the job was advertised, it was up to you to spot it and apply. Get out there are find yourself a PM job, whilst developing a good speech for your interviews about why you took a wage cut in order to develop further experience in the running of a local surgery prior to taking up a PM role.
    I'm the Board Guide on the Matched Betting; Referrers and Jobseeking & Training boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

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    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 16th Sep 17, 5:16 PM
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    sangie595
    I thought I'd just contribute my views.

    I think Nicki's views may unintentionally be a bit harsh. There is no proof that you failed to win their trust and confidence. I suspect that what happened is that you were either deliberately oversold your job, that you were simply overlooked in the current (assumed) recruitment of a PM Designate, or that the new job was advertised and you failed to apply.

    Depending on your relationships in the workplace, I would be tempted to raise a grievance and vent to the partners what you have told us. If you can keep your cool and raise the grievance as a discussion point, reassuring people that you want to put your case but you are not the sort of person who holds grudges, then you have nothing to lose by explaining to the PTB what has happened from your POV.

    However, there is a bit of me that feels that if the job was advertised, it was up to you to spot it and apply. Get out there are find yourself a PM job, whilst developing a good speech for your interviews about why you took a wage cut in order to develop further experience in the running of a local surgery prior to taking up a PM role.
    Originally posted by jobbingmusician
    Owwww , I am very uncomfortable with this. A grievance isn't a "grievance". It's a "Grievance", capital G, and it is a formal and legal process. It's not a vent, it's not your point of view, and it's very definitely about holding a grudge!

    And, as I said, it's formal. Very formal. And goes first to your manager. Not anywhere else. Not sneaking in to the doctor when your matter is on holiday. And definitely not doing that with your resignation in the other hand!

    I think the OP needs to accept that this job is a lost cause. It doesn't really matter why. And yes, I accept that maybe the Nicki is wrong about the loss of trust and confidence. But maybe she isn't. Being self critical is always hard. But let's take it on the fact of it. The PM took on this person with a view to possible promotion tho the PM position in the future. And over 5 years they have formed the view that this person should not take on that position, and that they make mistakes. Over five years this practice has had an opportunity to assess the OP. For some reason, which we will never know, the conclusion they have come to is that the OP is not suitable for the position. That's the end of it. That decision will not change. No, we don't know why that is. But equally, we don't know that they don't have good reason to feel that way. Just because it's what the OP wants doesn't mean that it's what they are good at. But at that point I do agree - go elsewhere, sell what skills you have and hopefully it will all work out ok. But whilst it's uncomfortable, it is also worth reflecting on why, with someone there on the spot, they might have decided to come to a different decision.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 16th Sep 17, 10:34 PM
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    jobbingmusician
    I'm not at all disputing that a Grievance is formal. However, I try to live by the maxim which goes something like 'never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence'. In this case it is possible that the OP has simply been overlooked, or has not demonstrated how important her career progression is to her. (Or him. But I bet it's a her.) A grievance will not only put their POV, but will also show the effect that this decision has had on their morale. And *should* throw some windows open if the OP has, indeed, been treated unfairly. Those windows bother me, because otherwise they stay closed and no-one is necessarily privy to the promises which were made to the OP by another member of staff who has now reneged on them.

    I suppose that what I am saying falls into two bits, really.

    1. Sort out the mire at your current job by raising a grievance. Or don't, and just leave ASAP. (I really want to open those windows, but do appreciate that Sangie's advice is generally better than mine.)

    2. Do some work, and have some thoughts, on how you put a very positive spin on your current post to contribute to your applications for a new, better, job.
    I'm the Board Guide on the Matched Betting; Referrers and Jobseeking & Training boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    The good folk of the matched betting board are now (I hope!) supporting Macmillan, in memory of Fifigrace. Visit
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    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 17th Sep 17, 8:01 AM
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    sangie595
    If that is all this is intended to do, have a chat. Not a grievance. Once this goes formal, then the OP will need to start looking for a job anyway - the last thing a grievance will do is get them the job. But I will say this again, just so it is clear - "promises" of promotion or jobs in the future are worthless, and there is nothing "wrong" here. The fault, if any, is that such a promise was made; assuming it was because there may well be different versions of what that "promise" meant.

    And that, I think, it's possibly the crux. There are always different points of view. I've been in enough performance management reviews to know that my member is always perfectly good, if not outstanding, at their job, works hard, and does a really great job. It's their managers fault because they hate them / bully them or want them gone. Sometimes that version is true. Sometimes, when I see the records, I have to check it's the same person because their performance is so bad I'm not sure it is! And more often than not, there's a middle point. Maybe the potential the manager saw in the OP hasn't been realised. Maybe there's a personality clash. Maybe the OP did raise all those ideas - but badly, so the question is not ability but approach or attitude. Maybe the manager is a little threatened. Maybe it's all of those things and ten more! But as I have to say frequently, unpalatable although some people find it, there is only one point of view that matters - the employers. It's their business, it's their opinion.

    I don't particularly like the fact, but we live in a capitalist society where the economic and social structure reflects the dominance of profit. That holds as true in the health and public sector worlds as it does in business. Employment law takes an edge off that. But it is only an edge. It controls the worst excesses, not the excesses overall. So I'm afraid that the employer is entitled to their point of view that the OP is not the person for the job, and that there is no recourse for the OP to hold them to what they believed they were promised. Whether that promise existed or not, it doesn't now.

    And one last point - if the OP decides to raise this with the doctor, over her managers head, which is a bad idea in my opinion, but..... Don't say that the reason they make mistakes is because they didn't make them the doctor did!
    • Fireflyaway
    • By Fireflyaway 17th Sep 17, 12:08 PM
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    Fireflyaway
    I can see why you feel disappointed and a bit used but I don't think raising a grievance would achieve much. There was no formal agreement that stated that you would be promoted / given a pay increase after a certain time or upon meeting certain criteria, so the lady you mention many have led you to believe certain things but I don't see that they are enforceable. The fact you have repeatedly asked for an appraisal and its fallen on deaf ears doesn't bode well.
    I think I'd be looking elsewhere. Sounds like this place is behind the times and realistically it doesn't seem that they view you as the one to step up. Whether that's a miscommunication, they might assume you are not interested, they might not see you as the right candidate for whatever reason or are just focused on doing things a certain way.
    You deserve to be listened to and paid fairly so go somewhere where that's going to happen.
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 17th Sep 17, 4:29 PM
    • 296 Posts
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    scd3scd4
    I live by a simple rule and I say the same thing to my wife. Get it in writing or assume it could never happen. Managers move, leave get promoted and a few lie.

    Dont really sound like a fantastic job to me............move on and find a job you will be valued in.
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 17-09-2017 at 4:44 PM.
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