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  • FIRST POST
    • VitaHQ
    • By VitaHQ 15th Jul 17, 10:19 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 0Thanks
    VitaHQ
    Money Owed
    • #1
    • 15th Jul 17, 10:19 PM
    Money Owed 15th Jul 17 at 10:19 PM
    Hello - I'm hoping you can provide info/advise.

    I am owed £2,225 by a landscape gardener who received the money to buy slabs, never did and then declared himself bankrupt. Timescales are:

    12.04.17 - I requested the monies be repaid (clearly something was wrong with the situation).
    28.04.17 - I had a Claim issued to the Defendant via an Online Money Claim
    05.05.17 - During the 14 days of the Claim being issued the Defendant declared himself bankrupt.

    The insolvency report show £0 assets so currently the prospect of receiving a penny is highly unlikely I appreciate. My local police force, Trading Standards and Action Fraud are all investigating the situation/Defendant.

    The Online Money Claim that was issued before the Bankruptcy still has a status of 'Issued' and I have not yet 'Requested Judgement' against the Defendant.

    What is the possible course of action I should take - I assume I wait until the Bankruptcy is discharged - am I able to Request Judgement and pursue the debt after their Bankruptcy?
Page 1
    • VitaHQ
    • By VitaHQ 15th Jul 17, 10:28 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    VitaHQ
    • #2
    • 15th Jul 17, 10:28 PM
    Money Owed
    • #2
    • 15th Jul 17, 10:28 PM
    Hello - I'm hoping you can provide info/advise.

    I am owed £2,225 by a landscape gardener who received the money to buy slabs, never did and then declared himself bankrupt. Timescales are:

    12.04.17 - I requested the monies be repaid (clearly something was wrong with the situation).
    28.04.17 - I had a Claim issued to the Defendant via an Online Money Claim
    05.05.17 - During the 14 days of the Claim being issued the Defendant declared himself bankrupt.

    The insolvency report show £0 assets so currently the prospect of receiving a penny is highly unlikely I appreciate. My local police force, Trading Standards and Action Fraud are all investigating the situation/Defendant.

    The Online Money Claim that was issued before the Bankruptcy still has a status of 'Issued' and I have not yet 'Requested Judgement' against the Defendant.

    What is the possible course of action I should take - I assume I wait until the Bankruptcy is discharged - am I able to Request Judgement and pursue the debt after their Bankruptcy?

    I recently found out that my wife is pregnant and the money will be needed!
    • A4445
    • By A4445 15th Jul 17, 10:55 PM
    • 584 Posts
    • 273 Thanks
    A4445
    • #3
    • 15th Jul 17, 10:55 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Jul 17, 10:55 PM
    I feel that your money maybe lost. Once a bankruptcy is discharged all debts are written off and creditors cannot pursue its illegal for them to do so. I believe if there are any funds remaining you can apply for % but it's not likely there will be much and that's down to the official receiver. I would expect the worst tbh your unlikely to get anything back!
    • VitaHQ
    • By VitaHQ 15th Jul 17, 11:02 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    VitaHQ
    • #4
    • 15th Jul 17, 11:02 PM
    • #4
    • 15th Jul 17, 11:02 PM
    Thanks for your reply. On the basis that no judgment has been given yet, could it be that there is no official debt that has been noted prior to the Bankruptcy, which means their is nothing to be written off?

    Technically could a debt be pursued with a judgement post-bankruptcy?

    Do you know the legal standpoint here?
    • A4445
    • By A4445 15th Jul 17, 11:11 PM
    • 584 Posts
    • 273 Thanks
    A4445
    • #5
    • 15th Jul 17, 11:11 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Jul 17, 11:11 PM
    I'm not sure about the legal standpoint but I'm sure there will be others that will post soon that will know.
    • Flyright
    • By Flyright 15th Jul 17, 11:32 PM
    • 302 Posts
    • 170 Thanks
    Flyright
    • #6
    • 15th Jul 17, 11:32 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Jul 17, 11:32 PM
    Ultimately any money owing to creditors prior to a bankruptcy order is written off by the making of a bankruptcy order unless the debt relates to fraud. If the behaviour of the bankrupt individual in incurring a debt suggests a level of misconduct then you as a creditor should also report your concerns to the Official Receiver.
    • VitaHQ
    • By VitaHQ 16th Jul 17, 7:19 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    VitaHQ
    • #7
    • 16th Jul 17, 7:19 AM
    • #7
    • 16th Jul 17, 7:19 AM
    Thanks - I've notified the Official Receiver of the situation and fraudulent/misconduct behaviour. I'm hoping that the defendant won't be discharged from the particular debt and/or that the bankruptcy will be extended or have restrictions placed on it.
    • -taff
    • By -taff 16th Jul 17, 8:43 AM
    • 7,228 Posts
    • 4,631 Thanks
    -taff
    • #8
    • 16th Jul 17, 8:43 AM
    • #8
    • 16th Jul 17, 8:43 AM
    You're not likely to get this money back.
    If he declared himself bankrupt, it's likely he included this debt in the bankruptcy if he was a sole trader and you're probably a long way down the list of creditors for that amount.
    • Flyright
    • By Flyright 16th Jul 17, 8:59 AM
    • 302 Posts
    • 170 Thanks
    Flyright
    • #9
    • 16th Jul 17, 8:59 AM
    • #9
    • 16th Jul 17, 8:59 AM
    I can't see how the debt will survive the bankruptcy in this situation I'm afraid. And I wouldn't hold out too much hope of the bankrupt getting a BRO purely based on the circumstances in which your debt came to be.

    It would need to either be a material amount compared to the other bankruptcy debts or the circumstances in incurring debt would need to be particularly reckless or cynical on the part of the bankrupt.
    Last edited by Flyright; 16-07-2017 at 9:03 AM.
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 16th Jul 17, 9:16 AM
    • 10,962 Posts
    • 8,164 Thanks
    fatbelly
    .

    What is the possible course of action I should take - I assume I wait until the Bankruptcy is discharged - am I able to Request Judgement and pursue the debt after their Bankruptcy?
    Originally posted by VitaHQ
    From the timescale you show, this is a bankruptcy debt and you have no right of action, either now or at any time in the future..

    Any monies due to you will be paid by the Official Receiver. Don't expect any.
    • -taff
    • By -taff 16th Jul 17, 9:31 AM
    • 7,228 Posts
    • 4,631 Thanks
    -taff
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5680093

    Duplicate thread.
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 16th Jul 17, 9:59 AM
    • 10,962 Posts
    • 8,164 Thanks
    fatbelly
    Thanks for your reply. On the basis that no judgment has been given yet, could it be that there is no official debt that has been noted prior to the Bankruptcy, which means their is nothing to be written off?

    Technically could a debt be pursued with a judgement post-bankruptcy?

    Do you know the legal standpoint here?
    Originally posted by VitaHQ
    From the technical manual:

    Bankruptcy debts are defined as [note 9]:
    •any debt or liability to which the bankrupt is subject at the commencement of the bankruptcy (being the date of the bankruptcy order),
    •any debt or liability to which the bankrupt may become subject after the commencement of bankruptcy, including after discharge from bankruptcy, by reason of any obligation incurred before the commencement of bankruptcy (a contingent liability – see paragraph 40.9),
    • TheGardener
    • By TheGardener 16th Jul 17, 12:11 PM
    • 2,063 Posts
    • 1,954 Thanks
    TheGardener
    Unfortunately if the person who owes you money has declared themselves BR and has zero assets - you will not get anything back - not now and not in the future.
    He won't have gone BR for just one small debt to you - there is a minimum debt of £20K before anyone can become BR (there are other options for people with smaller debts)
    Any action to recover money is 'trumped' by the BR.
    • fatbelly
    • By fatbelly 16th Jul 17, 1:20 PM
    • 10,962 Posts
    • 8,164 Thanks
    fatbelly
    You should get a full breakdown of his creditors. It is likely to be more than 20k owed but there is no official minimum for personal bankruptcy.

    It looks like your court claim was the 'straw that broke the camel's back'
    • VitaHQ
    • By VitaHQ 16th Jul 17, 5:18 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    VitaHQ
    Thanks for your input, all. I've had full details via the report, list of creditors etc. and have also met with other creditors to here their story. In summary, the Bankrupt has carried out the same scheme of taking deposits then citing bad health but never returning the money.

    I'm keen to pursue any avenue to try and prevent anyone in the future being scammed. The moment I was aware of the bankruptcy I accepted that the money was gone, unfortunately.

    I'll have to leave it to South Wales Police, Action Fraud and Trading Standards to do what they need to do.
  • National Debtline
    Hello VitaHQ


    For what it's worth, it sounds from what you say about the bankrupt that they may be made the subject of a Bankruptcy Restrictions Order (BRO). These Orders can extend the effects of bankruptcy for up to fifteen years as a sanction for various behaviours such as reckless/irresponsible conduct, which can include continuing to accept customer deposits when knowing one no longer has the means to trade.


    Details of recent BROs can be found at https://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/IESdatabase/viewbrobrusummary-new.asp


    I'm sorry that none of the above will necessarily help you recoup your money.


    Dennis
    @natdebtline
    We work as money advisers for National Debtline and have specific permission from MSE to post to try to help those in debt. Read more information on National Debtline in MSE's Debt Problems: What to do and where to get help guide. If you find you're struggling with debt and need further help try our online advice tool My Money Steps
    • MEM62
    • By MEM62 18th Jul 17, 9:44 AM
    • 1,248 Posts
    • 886 Thanks
    MEM62
    Thanks for your reply. On the basis that no judgment has been given yet, could it be that there is no official debt that has been noted prior to the Bankruptcy, which means their is nothing to be written off?

    Technically could a debt be pursued with a judgement post-bankruptcy?

    Do you know the legal standpoint here?
    Originally posted by VitaHQ
    There are no technicalities to get around the situation - unfortunately your money is gone. All debts incurred before the bankruptcy are included and this debt existed before bankruptcy. (The debt does not need a CCJ to 'exist')

    It would not be lawful for you to pursue this debt post-bankruptcy as the landscape gardener would have no liability for it. All you dealings must now be with the Official Receiver.

    Frustrating, I know, but that's how bankruptcy works.
    • rjwr
    • By rjwr 18th Jul 17, 10:10 AM
    • 235 Posts
    • 152 Thanks
    rjwr
    I feel bad for you, did you by any chance pay via a credit card?
    My DFD: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5641837
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