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Parking Eye PCN for parking in Mother and baby
Comments
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1) I haven't been back to that store since the incident occurred
2) I phoned to speak to the store manager and they just fobbed me off with parking eyes telephone number which didn't work
3) The person who advised me was a customer who pulled up next to me when i was removing the ticket from the windscreen
4) Newbie thread says they have 56 days to send an NTK but but the event happened on the 22nd February so when do i appeal to POPLA?0 -
At/after day 56 of course, as long as the rejection letter is dated this week, you are fine.
You need to start by stating no NTK was issued at all so the keeper can't be held liable, as per other POPLA appeals exactly the same (we get lots like this from UKPC so for wording, you could search 'UKPC POPLA absence of NTK no keeper liability day 56' in the forum 'search this board' box and change/advance the search to ''show posts'' (NOT 'threads').PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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Day 56 has arrived and postman has come and gone and still no NTK. Would this be sufficient at POPLA appeal?
A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served - no Keeper Liability can apply.
This operator has not fulfilled the 'second condition' for keeper liability as defined in Schedule 4 and as a result, they have no lawful authority to pursue any parking charge from myself, as a registered keeper appellant. There is no discretion on this matter. If Schedule 4 mandatory documents are not served at all, or in time (or if the document omits any prescribed wording) then keeper liability simply does not apply.
The wording in the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 is as follows:
''Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle:
4(1) The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. (2) The right under this paragraph applies only if
(a) the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6*, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met;
*Conditions that must be met for purposes of paragraph 4:
6(1) ''The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor)— (a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8. This is re-iterated further ‘If a notice to driver has been given, any subsequent notice to keeper MUST be given in accordance with paragraph 8.’
The NTK must have been delivered to the registered keeper’s address within the ‘relevant period’ which is highlighted as a total of 56 days beginning with the day after that on which any notice to driver was given. As this operator has evidently failed to serve a NTK, not only have they chosen to flout the strict requirements set out in PoFA 2012, but they have consequently failed to meet the second condition for keeper liability. Clearly I cannot be held liable to pay this charge as the mandatory series of parking charge documents were not properly given.
and
The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge
In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.
In this case, no other party apart from an evidenced driver can be told to pay. I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid NTK.
As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4. This applies regardless of when the first appeal was made and regardless of whether a purported 'NTK' was served or not, because the fact remains I am only appealing as the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed to be the liable party.
The burden of proof rests with the Operator to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.
Furthermore, the vital matter of full compliance with the POFA was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:
Understanding keeper liability
“There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.
There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.''
Therefore, no lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from myself as keeper of the vehicle, where an operator cannot transfer the liability for the charge using the POFA0 -
You're banking everything on a single point POPLA appeal? Is that what post #3 of the NEWBIES FAQ advises?0
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Did you not read the signs?
They are not mother and baby bays.
They are clearly displayed in all stores I visit and clearly shows that you should only use parent and child bays if you have young children you requiring some sort of child car seat. Max age 12.
PE are not going to cancel it you best bet is to go and see your store manager. Or try facebook or twitter for asda and post about it. They seem to cancel tickets mentioned on social media.0 -
You also need to include the Inadequate Signage point from post 3 of the NEWBIES along with, Not the landowner, and No standing to bring charges in their own name. The Inadequate signage point in the NEWBIES is longer than the whole of your draft appeal above, and you need to include it.
You also need to state that one of the occupants of the car was a mother and baby and the operator has provided no proof to the contrary.
Do not rely on the store to cancel this, even though they should, and even though ASDA probably own the car park. They usually do, but don't care about genuine shoppers.
Do appeal to PoPLA but do not miss the appeal deadline, plus a couple of days. Codes have been found to work for several days after the deadline.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
LOU7illest wrote: »I Contacted the store they just fobbed me off with the 3rd parties number.
As for the guff what I was getting at is right to ticket someone for non attendance of children if you park in parent and child and go instore to collect children? As I would think twice about doing that in future
I did tell you to also complain online so that their HEAD OFFICE in Leeds deals with it (raise a trouble ticket by complaining on their website)
you do not appear to have done this
as for your popla appeal, but every legal argument into it as you can muster, including signage etc
the NEWBIES sticky thread has plenty of info on what goes into a POPLA appeal0 -
surveyor_101 wrote: »Did you not read the signs?
They are not mother and baby bays.
They are clearly displayed in all stores I visit and clearly shows that you should only use parent and child bays if you have young children you requiring some sort of child car seat. Max age 12.
PE are not going to cancel it you best bet is to go and see your store manager. Or try facebook or twitter for asda and post about it. They seem to cancel tickets mentioned on social media.
Please leave the (what looks like) criticism of a pregnant lady out of it - any *normal* customer service ethos would allow her to park there, the problem being that parking firms don't have any such ethos, because they have no consumer customers and make it up as they go along.
Although I agree that the Store Manager is the best bet to cancel this if tried this week, the POPLA appeal is perfectly winnable on the basis of no keeper liability (PE are useless at remembering to serve a NTK after a rare windscreen PCN).Day 56 has arrived and postman has come and gone and still no NTK. Would this be sufficient at POPLA appeal?
I would never rely on one point - also throw in the usual 'no landowner authority' and 'dodgy signs'. And I would wait if you can for a few more days if your rejection letter was dated the end of March, you should try the Store manager cancellation first. Don't speak to a random CS desk person nor a Duty Manager grabbed off the meat tills or wherever.
STORE Manager.
And Head Office/Facebook/Twitter complaint to the retailer first, NOW, if your 31(ish) days isn't up yet.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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As a pregnant woman you are covered under the Equality act and ASDA are required to make reasonable adjustments.
While there is no statory requirement for P&C bays, there is for those who fall under the Equality act.
Parent and child bays are nothing more than a gimmick, and in my opinion they shouldn't be there, as they detract from the value of Disabled access bays, and give people a false sense of entitlement - there have been a few cases on here where someone has received a parking charge/ticket for parking in a disabled spot as there were no P&C baysFrom the Plain Language Commission:
"The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"0 -
Agreed - parent and child bays are a pathetic retail gimmick that parents buy into, when in fact they are merely being enticed to shop. They are pointless and nothing like disabled bays but we get so many people thinking they are entitled to a 'special bay' - e.g. even complete numpties using a disabled bay because (sob story) ''the parent & child bays were full''.
I realise that's not what the OP did but just, no.
A big fat NO to parent and child bays - get rid of them and there would be no issue. Use normal bays unless disabled.
But this OP will win anyway and didn't park badly IMHO.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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