Employment Tribunal - disclosure by list
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I thought 75% too but considered it in the same way as buying a house, put in something slightly cheeky first so went in at 80%. You never know?! If I drop straight down to 75% then I'm only losing the interest which is a bit questionable from what I've read about people being awarded it or not. As far as I've read it doesn't hurt to ask for and they can only say no, but as I said, I expected them to come back later that morning and say "haha, no." Offering something closer to their expectations.
The hearing is in Feb so still a little time, but like you say if it goes on into next week when they've incurred the cost of preparing the bundle then it's getting less likely. We've only got witness statements yet to come (and R only has my manager as a witness) in December and then closing statements and caselaw in January so the bundle is probably going to be the largest and most expensive part now before the case?
Sorry, I know I'm still not giving much away, if and when it all settles I'd be happy to explain the nature of the case for anyone looking for similar in future but don't want it to be too easily searchable by R as it all goes on.0 -
As others have said, without knowing the detail, it's tricky to know how realistic you are being.
- Have you provided evidence of your job search for the year - applications, interviews etc.- and an explanation as to why you haven't been able to get a job?
- No doubt you have researched the median award and have examples of cases similar to yours where the median award was appropriate?
- Some companies won't negotiate and will just say no and plough on. Don't expect them to be happy to bounce back and forth as you edge towards a mid point. It costs money to have a lawyer on the phone to ACAS, back to the client, back to ACAS etc.. If they think you're being unrealistic and this is going nowhere, they may just give up. Bear in mind that once an offer is rejected, that's it - in law, the offer is gone and you cannot go back to it later (unless it is restated). So if they offer something you would accept, think carefully about rejecting as they may not offer it again.
Other points:
- Bundles can be quite straightforward. If you gave all your docs in chronological order, they just need to slip their two in and then run it through a copier to paginate, add the page numbers to the list and done. It can be an hour's work or less so not necessarily the massive job. They only need to produce one for you at this stage too.
- Witness statements can take a lot longer and be far more involved. Whilst they may only have one witness at the moment, this can change so there may be more. I would be surprised if HR were not relevant to some degree?
- Do not underestimate how stressful and upsetting a tribunal hearing can be. I have seen the most organised and together people fall apart and burst into tears, just at the tension and adversarial nature of it. The public can view hearings so go see some beforehand if you haven't already.
- If you did not resign, companies are often reluctant to restate history and confirm that you did. It's misleading at best. This is often dealt with as "Ms X's employment terminated on DATE", rather than was dismissed or resigned.
- Tribunal judgments are now publicly available on the gov.uk website. Whilst you may not tell your next employer what has happened, a lot of employers are now carrying out a search of the site to see if someone has previously brought a claim. Worth bearing in mind.0 -
DiscriminationClaimant17 wrote: »I thought 75% too but considered it in the same way as buying a house, put in something slightly cheeky first so went in at 80%. You never know?! If I drop straight down to 75% then I'm only losing the interest
I understand your thinking but I think you need to lower your expectations if you want to have a realistic chance of settling without being bitterly disappointed. This isn't a house sale.
Legal disputes tend to settle for far less than the headline amount of the claim. Think significantly less than 50%.
A 75% settlement might be appropriate in circumstances such as a very cut-and-dry debt claim, but for a discrimination claim you should expect to end up with much less.
Especially if the claim for a full year's lost wages is a big chunk of what you are claiming for. That is going to be difficult to get. You will be expected to demonstrate that you mitigated your loss by searching for a new job, and people will generally be expected to be able to find a new job within a couple of weeks, not a year.0 -
I completely agree with you about the headlines, and not taking them as an indicator. They are headlines because they are exceptional. There is nothing newsworthy in "Tribunal awards £450 to labourer for unfair dismissal".steampowered wrote: »I understand your thinking but I think you need to lower your expectations if you want to have a realistic chance of settling without being bitterly disappointed. This isn't a house sale.
Legal disputes tend to settle for far less than the headline amount of the claim. Think significantly less than 50%.
A 75% settlement might be appropriate in circumstances such as a very cut-and-dry debt claim, but for a discrimination claim you should expect to end up with much less.
Especially if the claim for a full year's lost wages is a big chunk of what you are claiming for. That is going to be difficult to get. You will be expected to demonstrate that you mitigated your loss by searching for a new job, and people will generally be expected to be able to find a new job within a couple of weeks, not a year.
I also agree about being required to evidence your job search / employment loss. But I'd be astonished if someone could get a new job in weeks! Several months is not unheard of, especially if there are factors that act as contra indications such as similar hours.
And I'd disagree on figures. I recognise this is difficult given lack of information etc. But as a general rule, if I have a good case, I'd never settle for less than 50%. And I've never done so. More likely 70%. But obviously that is based on it being a winnable case, and on a very realistic schedule of loss - neither of which I can ascertain here. Settling for less than 50% would only be on the table if I wasn't convinced we'd win.
But that is obviously based on having a lot of experience on our side of the table to do these negotiations. When you do them a lot, you have a sense of what they will accept on the other side.0 -
Hi!
Evidence of job hunting has been provided in the remedy documents, applications etc, but I have two small children (below school age) so finding jobs that fit around family life in any way similar to my last job are incredibly hard to come by. I've explained this and the reasons for it in my schedule of loss. I've been offering some services from home and can demonstrate willingness to work (rather than just taking advantage of extended maternity leave!) and have deducted my earnings from this in my schedule of loss too but it's nowhere near enough to live on otherwise I'd keep doing it! - more like the equivalent of 2/3 weeks work in my previous role over the full 7 months since my job ended.
I apprieciate that some companies are unwilling to budge and what they come back with might be the only offer they ever make, but they didn't make any indication to kickstart negotiations at their expectations so without that it's going to be high. I've unfortunately not heard anything yet which is worrying me that they've changed their mind and perhaps my figure WAS too high, but then why say "name your price" if they didn't want to tell me what was acceptable to them? I have faith in the strength of my case so in the absence of a figure from them why should I lower the value of the claim?
I've also submitted my reference (factual only as that's the company policy anyway) and I have put resignation on there - to me saying "employment terminated" would be a negative reference. I'd certainly want to know why someone's reference used the word "terminated" if it crossed my desk. I've explained in my email why resignation is neutral (my manager's version of events it was my choice not to return to work following maternity leave anyway).
Clearly I don't have experience on my side but I can really only fake it until I make it and not back down otherwise they'll think my confidence in the claim is wavering. Of course I'm terrified of the prospect of the hearing going ahead - I want it done and finished but at the end of the day no justice will be served for my employer's actions if I go low and don't fight! I've put in so much blood, sweat and tears up to this point and I can't imagine anyone in my position (being asked to come up with the first figure) would drop so fast without a fight?!
Sorry, reread this like 20 times now and it seems really defensive, but just trying to answer as many points as possible!0 -
That's fine. It sounds like you need to sit tight for now, and see if a good offer comes in. Good luck!
On the reference, can't the reference just confirm job titles and dates of employment? A standard reference doesn't need to say "resigned" or "terminated" or anything like that.0 -
I thought about that as I was writing it but again if I came across one that didn't have a reason for leaving I'd be asking why. I suppose worst case scenario is that they don't agree with that part and we agree to just leave it job title, start, end dates.0
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In my line of work (professional services) it is now standard practice for references to just confirm job title and dates of employment, without giving a reason for leaving.0
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That's very handy to know, thank you!
In fairness things have probably changed while I've been out of the loop having babies!!0 -
It really depends. Many employers give much more detailed references. Some must do so by law. And some employers wouldn't be satisfied with only a basic reference. There are so many variations on the theme that it's impossible to be precise as to what is "accepted". In the sector that I most often work in, a basic reference would absolutely put employers off - they would assume the worst if you if that is all a previous employer had to say. In fact, for many of those employers, the giving of only a basic reference is the "invitation" not to employ the person, or to give them an off the record call to find out the truth!0
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