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McDonald's & MET - almost a month later
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Further thoughts having read ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67:The BPA Code of Practice is a detailed code of regulation governing signs, charges and enforcement procedures. Clause 13 deals with grace periods. Clause 13.4 provides: “13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action.”
Given the car was not able to be started immediately after the first purchase, sixteen minutes wouldn’t seem to be a reasonable period of time.“19.6 If your parking charge is based on a contractually agreed sum, that charge cannot be punitive or unreasonable. If it is more than the recommended amount in 19.5 and is not justified in advance, it could lead to an investigation by the Office of Fair Trading.”
The charge is not “prominently displayed in large letters at the entrance to the car park” nor “at frequent intervals within it.”Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 200. Regulation 8(1) provides that “An unfair term in a contract concluded with a consumer by a seller or supplier shall not be binding on the consumer”. 201. Regulation 5(1) specifies what is to be understood by an unfair term. It provides that: Page 89 “A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.”
Can MET, “dealing fairly and equitably with the consumer, … reasonably assume that the consumer would have agreed to such a term in individual contract negotiations”? Is it true that a reasonable motorist would agree to pay a £100 charge if, due to breaking down, they were to overstay by a quarter of an hour? (ref para 108) After all, it is common for councils and other bodies to waive similar fees when a car is unable to be moved due to a mechanical fault or similar. Is the charge really levied in good faith?0 -
the Beavis case blew the not a gpeol out of the water (the last part)
you omitted the part in clause #13 about the driver having time to enter the site , park up , read the signs and comply
council tickets may be say 10 minutes , which is not unreasonable
add grace time before the parking event to grace time after the parking event and its approx 20 minutes , even 5 minutes before and 11 minutes after is 16 minutes
ergo, they failed the BPA CoP0 -
the Beavis case blew the not a gpeol out of the water (the last part)
I think that's a litte strong. After all, Lord Toulson dissented saying:314. The point is that the penalty clause makes no allowance for circumstances, allows no period of grace and provides no room for adjustment ... I return to the point that it was for ParkingEye to show the factual grounds on which it could reasonably assume that a customer using that car park would have agreed, in individual negotiations, to pay £85 if he overstayed for a minute, or parked with his wheels not entirely within a marked bay, or for whatever reason returned to the car park in less than one hour (perhaps because he had left something behind). On the bare information which was placed before the court, I am not persuaded that ParkingEye has shown grounds for assuming that a party who was in a position to bargain individually, and who was advised by a competent lawyer, would have agreed to the penalty clause as it stood.
315. Lord Neuberger and Lord Sumption in para 107 have substituted their judgment of reasonableness of the clause for the question whether the supplier could reasonably have assumed that the customer would have agreed with the term, and on that approach there is not much, if any, difference in substance from the test whether it offended the penalty doctrine at common law. That approach is consistent with their statement in para 104 that the considerations which show that it is not a penalty demonstrate also that it does not offend the Regulations. I consider that the approach waters down the test adopted by the CJEU and at the very least that the point is not acte clair.you omitted the part in clause #13 about the driver having time to enter the site , park up , read the signs and comply
council tickets may be say 10 minutes , which is not unreasonable
add grace time before the parking event to grace time after the parking event and its approx 20 minutes , even 5 minutes before and 11 minutes after is 16 minutes
ergo, they failed the BPA CoP
Thanks. I had to submit yesterday (Monday) but is it possible to add representations or should I wait for their response first?0 -
I think that's a litte strong. After all, Lord Toulson dissented saying:Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0 -
Sure, but that doesn't make his points completely invalid and unmentionable?
Mention it to the judge then if it does get to court.Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0 -
Okay so got rejection letter from MET today and also McDonald's who claim on one hand "any mitigating circumstances need to be agreed with a manager at the time" (drive didn't realise they'd gone over by 15 mins not taking a note of arrival time as they obviously didn't plan to break down) but also that they "are unable to deal with cases on an individual basis".
Their grounds for rejection are as follows:
1. Signs comply with the BPA (I don't agree).
2. Purchases made are irrelevant.
3. I fixed the vehicle myself so don't have documentation (I never said this and, while I don't have documentation, I can request this). Seems wrong of them to a) misrepresent what I said and b) reject the claim based on such an assumption especially since it's implied that they would allow it otherwise
4. They refuse to provide information about ownership of the land.
I guess now all I need to do is go to POPLA. Anything else to consider or add?
Thanks0 -
your popla appeal wont be based on the above , so search out recent popla drafts over the last 4 months or so, nothing from before 2016
issues will be like
no landowner contract
poor or inadequate signage (fails the BPA CoP)
BPA CoP errors (especially clause #13)
NTK errors
POFA2012 errors
not the same as the Beavis case
plus the driver has not been identified, and the claimant has not successfully transferred the liability to the keeper (ie individual appellant not being evidenced to be the liable driver )
etc etc
what you stated about Lord Toulson isnt relevant , MET will cite the BEAVIS case as fait accompli , hence why you would not bring up "not a gpeol" as the POPLA assessor will just see the Beavis case and find in their favour
hence why an anti-Beavis point is made, where relevant (or Beavis is not brought up , neither is not a gpeol either)0 -
Search the forum for 'MET POPLA' or 'McDonalds POPLA' but only read examples from the last six months, certainly nothing from 2015 or older.
Also in the POPLA Decisions thread I have started to put up a few template examples of POPLA appeal points. I have just written and placed there, one about 'unclear signs' which DOES feature in every POPLA appeal of course (and all sites do have signs up...so what!).
If you have been careful not to imply who was driving you can also use the point #2 about the 'individual appellant not being evidenced to be the liable driver'. This is designed to follow a point #1 about 'no keeper liability' where you point out the omissions in the NTK (as found in other examples when you search).PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Remember, all that matters in the end is what a judge says. Given the circumstances, I very much doubt if any judge in the land would find for the PPC. This one threw the case out.
http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/vcs-spanked-in-court-as-motorist-and.htmlYou never know how far you can go until you go too far.0
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