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  • FIRST POST
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 1st Dec 17, 2:48 PM
    • 25Posts
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    MikeHammer
    POPLA Appeal Feedback Please - ECP
    • #1
    • 1st Dec 17, 2:48 PM
    POPLA Appeal Feedback Please - ECP 1st Dec 17 at 2:48 PM
    First time posting and in need of some brief advice before proceeding with an appeal.

    I have read the stickies, I've read the FAQ's, I've read the BPA Code of Practice and I've reviewed paragraph 9 of POFA 2012 that relates to postal NTK's. I've also searched various things on this forum in order to better equip myself with the knowledge I may need, should I proceed with an appeal. Apologies in advance for not being able to link the images due to being a new member.

    Put simply, the driver entered a ECP car park from a 30mph road at around 7.50pm on a dark night. On the occasion for which the PCN has been issued, the driver did not see signs upon entering the car park, nor did they see any larger signs adjacent to ticket machines. No signage was visible from where the driver parked the car, nor on the exit route used from the car park (a genuine, gravel path exit - not jumping a fence or anything!).

    The times indicated on the PCN say the vehicle was in the car park for 10 minutes and 48 seconds. The PCN shows ANPR images of a numberplate (the car itself is not visible in the image, nor is anything identifiable as the car park itself).

    The reason I'm asking for advice is because the driver did not purchase a ticket for the duration of the stay as they did not see the signage (the majority of what I've read when searching this forum are from people who have tickets but who've exceeded the time permitted).

    Upon returning to the car park (without a camera so unable to post actual pics), there are small signs at the entrance that have a white "P" in a blue square and some other small text (apologies for not being able to share an image link to an example). This sign is at a height not convenient for a driver to see/read when turning into the car park from a 30mph road (where Government guidelines say the sign must be legible at a speed of 15mph). It is not illuminated, either by direct or indirect light. It appears to be reflective but is at a height far above that which would be lit by car headlights (also the angle of approach to the car park mean your headlights would not light up that sign even if it were at a lower level).

    The main sign in the car park located next to a ticket machine (that is illuminated) is a big yellow/blue ECP standard looking sign (again, apologies for not being able to share an image link to an example), however the driver did not see it when parking on the occasion for which the PCN was issued. Having gone back to the car park and specifically looked, it *is* illuminated and it is directly opposite the vehicle entrance to the car park (probably 100 yards or so directly in front of the entrance), however the driver drove immediately right upon entering the car park so would not have been facing it at any point.

    I have attempted to search for any related advice. I have found some very useful information (so thank you to everyone who commits time to helping others on here) but nothing that fits the combination of circumstances (not purchasing a ticket) *and* potential reason for appeal (signage).

    I wanted to seek your views on whether it's worth me appealing, given the driver did not buy any ticket at all and given it probably looks like all the relevant info that needs to be on the signs is on the signs (they're just not prominent at all).

    Thank you in advance.
    Last edited by MikeHammer; 13-12-2017 at 12:03 PM.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 1st Dec 17, 3:01 PM
    • 16,931 Posts
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 1st Dec 17, 3:01 PM
    • #2
    • 1st Dec 17, 3:01 PM
    "given the DRIVER did not buy any ticket at all"

    always be careful in any "stories" that you write , so edit the above post

    all appeals include poor and inadequate signage , inlcuding illumination and siting etc

    generally speaking, it is thought that a driver has up to 10 minutes to comply or leave a private car park

    read clause #13 of the BPA CoP dated october 2015 , that details those details that their members sign up to

    government regulations dont apply on private car parks, but common sense does

    use the blue text appeal, and add a paragraph stating that clause #13 of the BPA CoP applies here

    and also check how long the NTK took to arrive
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 1st Dec 17, 3:12 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    • #3
    • 1st Dec 17, 3:12 PM
    • #3
    • 1st Dec 17, 3:12 PM
    Hi Redx - thank you for the reply. OP edited - good spot.

    The NTK arrived within the 14 days (just).

    Thank you for your advice to include the Grace Period reference (sections 13.1 and 13.2 of the BCA CoP). I will definitely include this. I could not find any explicit reference to a period of time that's generally allowed for a driver to enter a car park, reject the contract and leave. I'd only read what's in section 13.4 about a suggested grace period of 10 minutes to leave.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 1st Dec 17, 3:18 PM
    • 342 Posts
    • 344 Thanks
    claxtome
    • #4
    • 1st Dec 17, 3:18 PM
    • #4
    • 1st Dec 17, 3:18 PM
    Assuming your case gets to POPLA Appeal my thread was for a similar case (6 mins not 10.5 mins) and was successful at POPLA appeal->
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5693229

    Good luck

    May have to mention the extra few seconds as "de minimis" ("The law does not concern itself with trifles").
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 1st Dec 17, 3:31 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    • #5
    • 1st Dec 17, 3:31 PM
    • #5
    • 1st Dec 17, 3:31 PM
    Thanks claxtome - just read through your thread and can pick up some important tips from the advice given to you. Glad you won your appeal
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 4th Dec 17, 8:25 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    • #6
    • 4th Dec 17, 8:25 AM
    • #6
    • 4th Dec 17, 8:25 AM
    RedX - can I just pick up on something you said please?

    "government regulations dont apply on private car parks, but common sense does"

    Is this definitely the case? The reason I ask is reading the BPA CoP, section 18.4 states:
    If you intend to use the keeper liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012, your signs must give ’adequate notice’. This includes:
    • specifying the sum payable for unauthorised parking
    • adequately bringing the charges to the attention of drivers, and
    • following any applicable government signage regulations.
    The final bullet point is why I'm querying what you said.
    Last edited by MikeHammer; 04-12-2017 at 8:49 AM.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 4th Dec 17, 10:09 AM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,221 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #7
    • 4th Dec 17, 10:09 AM
    • #7
    • 4th Dec 17, 10:09 AM
    Yes, but there are none that apply to the actual format of the sign - there are Advertising Consent concerns if the signs are larger than a specific size, however there are NO regulations on the size, shape, content etc. It is also based on contract law.
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 4th Dec 17, 11:02 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    • #8
    • 4th Dec 17, 11:02 AM
    Appeal to PPC - include pics of signage?
    • #8
    • 4th Dec 17, 11:02 AM
    As keeper, I'm about to submit the blue text from the Newbie thread to Euro Car Parks. There's a paragraph under the blue text that talks about supporting evidence. I wondered if it's generally worth including pictures of what the keeper considers inadequate signage in the car park or whether this will serve to give ECP advanced warning of what would be submitted at the POPLA stage and, therefore, a longer period of time for them to prepare their rebuttal of this evidence?

    The images would be of badly lit signs, no signage visible from where the vehicle was parked. I'm thinking of submitting them and referring to section 18.3 of the BCA CoP:

    You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle.
    Thank you
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 4th Dec 17, 11:29 AM
    • 40,521 Posts
    • 80,919 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #9
    • 4th Dec 17, 11:29 AM
    • #9
    • 4th Dec 17, 11:29 AM
    Save your ammo for PoPLA. Just send the BPA template in blue exactly as it appears in the NEWBIES and await the inevitable rejection.
    Inadequate signage will be one of several PoPLA appeal points, templates of which are available in the NEWBES.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 4th Dec 17, 11:29 AM
    • 15,937 Posts
    • 24,722 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I wondered if it's generally worth including pictures of what the keeper considers inadequate signage in the car park or whether this will serve to give ECP advanced warning of what would be submitted at the POPLA stage and, therefore, a longer period of time for them to prepare their rebuttal of this evidence?
    We normally suggest the attachment of copies of receipts for shopping, or meals, or accommodation to prove that the motorist was a genuine customer if the car park was servicing one of these types of establishment.

    You’re spot on about keeping your powder dry for POPLA, so I would advise you not to submit any signage photographs at this stage. Even if the signage is pants - and the PPC agrees with that - they wouldn’t cancel, they’d try to ride their luck in attempting to extort you out of £100. You’re involved in a murky business!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 4th Dec 17, 11:48 AM
    • 15,937 Posts
    • 24,722 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Is this case linked to your other thread? If so, please get the two merged by sending a PM to either Crabman or soolin (Board Guides) - links at the bottom r/h of the forum thread list, one page back from this one.

    Forum etiquette - one case, one thread and definitely do not open a new thread for any random question you might have. Everything in one place, please. Thanks.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 04-12-2017 at 12:24 PM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 4th Dec 17, 12:28 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Thanks for your advice Fruitcake and Umkomaas - appreciate your time.

    I apologise for starting a new thread - I didn't realise this was the etiquette on this forum so am sorry.

    Previous forums I've posted on have had different expectations, usually one topic or question per thread (hence why I've started a new one for a different question). I think the logic was if you're thread titles are a clear indication as to the contents, it helps other board users either read or search for threads they're interested in.

    I'll do as you ask and pm the Board Guides.

    Thanks again.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 4th Dec 17, 2:01 PM
    • 4,769 Posts
    • 3,117 Thanks
    KeithP
    Yes, as said, one thread per topic.

    Feel free to edit the thread title as your issue progresses.
    .
    • Crabman
    • By Crabman 4th Dec 17, 8:40 PM
    • 9,603 Posts
    • 7,007 Thanks
    Crabman
    Hi Mike - your threads have been merged.

    I'm a Board Guide on the Savings & Investments, ISAs & Tax-free Savings, Public Transport & Cycling, Motoring and Parking Fines, Tickets & Parking Boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Board Guides are not moderators & don't read every post. If you spot a contentious or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com

    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 5th Dec 17, 8:26 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Great - thank you for the help

    Hi Mike - your threads have been merged.

    Originally posted by Crabman
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 5th Dec 17, 10:14 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Discrepancy in NTK?
    Am submitting appeal today and in process of getting the POPLA appeal sorted. I have a question around a discrepancy in the NTK the keeper received from Euro Car Parks. It might be nothing and irrelevant.

    POFA 2012 paragraph 9(2)(f), when talking about the parking charge, states that the notice must: "warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given".

    The NTK from ECP states: "you are advised that if, after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the date issued), the parking charge has not been paid in full........"

    To me, there's a discrepancy there and ECP aren't saying the same thing that POFA says. Actually, ECP are giving longer to pay the charge but it's still not the same as the POFA wording. What do people think?
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 5th Dec 17, 10:51 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    In relation to my post above, I've just found this thread (linked below) where someone won their ECP POPLA appeal seemingly because of this discrepancy:

    I'm not 100% sure this is why the appeal was won as the POPLA decision (I recall the info on the Newbie thread about ParkingEye(?) and the 'golden ticket'.. I'd appreciate someone with more experience taking a couple minutes to read the decision and let me know if I have a point here.

    Thank you in advance.

    Thread: hxxp://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5619848&highlight=euro+car+parks+ won&page=2#28
    Last edited by MikeHammer; 05-12-2017 at 10:55 AM.
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 6th Dec 17, 2:54 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    NTK wording discrepancy?
    Hi guys, I'm seeking clarification on the question from above, specifically:

    Am submitting appeal today and in process of getting the POPLA appeal sorted. I have a question around a discrepancy in the NTK the keeper received from Euro Car Parks. It might be nothing and irrelevant.

    POFA 2012 paragraph 9(2)(f), when talking about the parking charge, states that the notice must: "warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given".

    The NTK from ECP states: "you are advised that if, after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the date issued), the parking charge has not been paid in full........"

    To me, there's a discrepancy there and ECP aren't saying the same thing that POFA says. Actually, ECP are giving longer to pay the charge but it's still not the same as the POFA wording. What do people think?
    Originally posted by MikeHammer
    Thank you!
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 7th Dec 17, 2:52 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    When I've written my POPLA appeal and am seeking help/feedback is it etiquette to post a new thread or to continue this one?

    Thank you
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Dec 17, 2:58 PM
    • 16,931 Posts
    • 21,054 Thanks
    Redx
    stick to the same thread please

    one topic , one thread only

    open a new thread if its a different topic or pcn or court case

    so one thread for each case , start to finish
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
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