Complex Estate / Need Some Advice / Tips
MattWright
Posts: 5 Forumite
Hello, I’ve joined up purely to post here. My fianc!’s father has unexpectedly passed away. A great man and an enormous loss to us all.
He has two children (my fianc! and her brother). Both of whom are very close (thankfully). He is divorced (twenty years ago) and is close with his ex wife and so; there’s to be no dispute, or issues that I can foresee, except; perhaps for an ex partner who helped in his business for a handful of years. More on that later.
A will has been found with his solicitor - made back in 2004 stating his two children are to receive everything. The executor is a lawyer at said firm and he is still with them. So far so good.
However the first alarm bell is that the Solicitors are stating that they are unable to give a cost for their services due to the large estate. I understand this but pressed them for a figure. They’ve said anywhere between 15k up to 22k plus VAT. And this is with us (the family) doing all of the heavy lifting - i.e: valuations, estate assets listing with liabilities, etc. There should be little to no investigative work for them to do. So I find their charges a bit much.
They’ve said that they charge hourly and not on % of estate.
The estate includes 14 properties and 12 vehicles with a few other more obscure assets. And so I understand it’s not an average estate. Value might be £5,000,000 but with liabilities, it could go down to more like 2,700,000.
The ONLY unknown is that an ex partner (as mentioned) might come out of the woodwork to make a claim; despite having been taken care of; morally she’s no right but when has that stopped people before
And so, my questions are:
1: with the size of the estate and variables therein; we are best to use a solicitor / specialist for probate, etc?
2: can the two beneficiaries (my fianc! and her brother) change the executor? Can they not demand to be the executors themselves?
3: if they cannot change the executor; should they stay with the law firm that the executor works for? For ease of refinement?
4: if we are going to do all of the heavy work; can we get quotes from / use other Solicitors; even if the executor is at this other firm?
5: do the costs I’ve stated above seem about right, given all I’ve said?
Thank you for any and all help.
He has two children (my fianc! and her brother). Both of whom are very close (thankfully). He is divorced (twenty years ago) and is close with his ex wife and so; there’s to be no dispute, or issues that I can foresee, except; perhaps for an ex partner who helped in his business for a handful of years. More on that later.
A will has been found with his solicitor - made back in 2004 stating his two children are to receive everything. The executor is a lawyer at said firm and he is still with them. So far so good.
However the first alarm bell is that the Solicitors are stating that they are unable to give a cost for their services due to the large estate. I understand this but pressed them for a figure. They’ve said anywhere between 15k up to 22k plus VAT. And this is with us (the family) doing all of the heavy lifting - i.e: valuations, estate assets listing with liabilities, etc. There should be little to no investigative work for them to do. So I find their charges a bit much.
They’ve said that they charge hourly and not on % of estate.
The estate includes 14 properties and 12 vehicles with a few other more obscure assets. And so I understand it’s not an average estate. Value might be £5,000,000 but with liabilities, it could go down to more like 2,700,000.
The ONLY unknown is that an ex partner (as mentioned) might come out of the woodwork to make a claim; despite having been taken care of; morally she’s no right but when has that stopped people before
And so, my questions are:
1: with the size of the estate and variables therein; we are best to use a solicitor / specialist for probate, etc?
2: can the two beneficiaries (my fianc! and her brother) change the executor? Can they not demand to be the executors themselves?
3: if they cannot change the executor; should they stay with the law firm that the executor works for? For ease of refinement?
4: if we are going to do all of the heavy work; can we get quotes from / use other Solicitors; even if the executor is at this other firm?
5: do the costs I’ve stated above seem about right, given all I’ve said?
Thank you for any and all help.
0
Comments
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If you are doing all the hard work that the3 fees are high. You can ask the soilicitor to give up the executorship in your favour but they may not agree. Wit an estate that size you will need to get proper paid for valuations by an RICS for each one. Estate agents estimates will not do. If the properties are going to be sold then the costs for that will be substantial.MattWright wrote: »Hello, I’ve joined up purely to post here. My fianc!’s father has unexpectedly passed away. A great man and an enormous loss to us all.
He has two children (my fianc! and her brother). Both of whom are very close (thankfully). He is divorced (twenty years ago) and is close with his ex wife and so; there’s to be no dispute, or issues that I can foresee, except; perhaps for an ex partner who helped in his business for a handful of years. More on that later.
A will has been found with his solicitor - made back in 2004 stating his two children are to receive everything. The executor is a lawyer at said firm and he is still with them. So far so good.
However the first alarm bell is that the Solicitors are stating that they are unable to give a cost for their services due to the large estate. I understand this but pressed them for a figure. They’ve said anywhere between 15k up to 22k plus VAT. And this is with us (the family) doing all of the heavy lifting - i.e: valuations, estate assets listing with liabilities, etc. There should be little to no investigative work for them to do. So I find their charges a bit much.
They’ve said that they charge hourly and not on % of estate.
The estate includes 14 properties and 12 vehicles with a few other more obscure assets. And so I understand it’s not an average estate. Value might be £5,000,000 but with liabilities, it could go down to more like 2,700,000.
The ONLY unknown is that an ex partner (as mentioned) might come out of the woodwork to make a claim; despite having been taken care of; morally she’s no right but when has that stopped people before
And so, my questions are:
1: with the size of the estate and variables therein; we are best to use a solicitor / specialist for probate, etc?
2: can the two beneficiaries (my fianc! and her brother) change the executor? Can they not demand to be the executors themselves?
3: if they cannot change the executor; should they stay with the law firm that the executor works for? For ease of refinement?
4: if we are going to do all of the heavy work; can we get quotes from / use other Solicitors; even if the executor is at this other firm?
5: do the costs I’ve stated above seem about right, given all I’ve said?
Thank you for any and all help.0 -
Normally I would not say this, but with an estate this size and complexity I would leave it with the professionals. You have no right to change the executors, but most solicitors will stand aside for a simple estate , which this is not.
Your FIL probably choose to use solicitors for a good reason.0 -
I’m with Keep pedalling on this - with an estate with a possible value of £5 million, fees of £20k are a drop in the ocean.
You say you will be doing all valuations with many properties and a business etc.... I’d recommend to buy in help. I don’t know your level of experience nor expertise, but the tax, accurate valuations etc that will be needed for HMRC will be costly in time and headaches. Plus a possibly contentious issue with ex-partner? Don’t underestimate the toll of dealing with all this on top of bereavement.
Entirely up to you, but the beneficiaries can very much afford to “lose” a relatively small amount out of such a large windfall for peace of mind.0 -
Keep_pedalling wrote: »Normally I would not say this, but with an estate this size and complexity I would leave it with the professionals. You have no right to change the executors, but most solicitors will stand aside for a simple estate , which this is not.
Your FIL probably choose to use solicitors for a good reason.
Same here. High value estate and it will take some sorting out, including IHT, paying off all liabilities etc. I don't think the fee you've been quoted is excessive for the complexity of the estate and the value of it, and for shouldering the responsibilities of executor. I was one of many beneficiaries of an estate worth one and half million before IHT, and the solicitors fee was about £17k - well every penny in my opinion. Too may possible (expensive) pitfalls for those who don't know exactly what they're doing.0 -
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]An executor cannot charge the estate for their own time so what is it that allows solicitors who are appointed executor to charge?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Does it have to be provided for in the will, or is other legislation involved?[/FONT]0 -
Thank you for all of your replies. Truly appreciated.
I think that from our side; whilst new to all of this; we all run our own businesses and are quick to get up to speed.
If we are getting valuations and contacting loan providers; doing all of the digging; I find their costs to be too much.
As for the valuations; yes we are getting a probate specific set of valuations done by RICS. Vehicle valuations will be done via Reg and mileage via industry books.
The other point I hadn’t made is that in the first fortnight of activity; I’ve been deeply unimpressed with the Solicitors. They don’t seem to be as on the ball as we are; and we are new to all of this. I won’t go into details but I’m simple terms; I doubt their skill level in dealing with this estate and it’s one reason why we’ve decided to take much of the task on ourselves.
Regarding the executor angle. So the executor cannot be forced to give up their role in favour of the beneficiaries (who are in agreement). The executor can only be ‘asked’ to?0 -
You are unlikely to be able to force the executor to give up. If you are doing all the hard work I would expect their fee to be less that £5K. They will be filling out the forms and dealing with HMRC. 20 hours at £250 should be ample plus of course normal fees if you are selling the propertiesMattWright wrote: »Thank you for all of your replies. Truly appreciated.
I think that from our side; whilst new to all of this; we all run our own businesses and are quick to get up to speed.
If we are getting valuations and contacting loan providers; doing all of the digging; I find their costs to be too much.
As for the valuations; yes we are getting a probate specific set of valuations done by RICS. Vehicle valuations will be done via Reg and mileage via industry books.
The other point I hadn’t made is that in the first fortnight of activity; I’ve been deeply unimpressed with the Solicitors. They don’t seem to be as on the ball as we are; and we are new to all of this. I won’t go into details but I’m simple terms; I doubt their skill level in dealing with this estate and it’s one reason why we’ve decided to take much of the task on ourselves.
Regarding the executor angle. So the executor cannot be forced to give up their role in favour of the beneficiaries (who are in agreement). The executor can only be ‘asked’ to?0 -
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]An executor cannot charge the estate for their own time so what is it that allows solicitors who are appointed executor to charge?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Does it have to be provided for in the will, or is other legislation involved?[/FONT]
Because the deceased appointed a professional to do so knowing it would be charged for. If they were not allowed to charge then they would not take on the role, and with some estates a professional is essential.
One advantage of using a solicitor is that they have PI insurance, so if they muck it up, the beneficiaries can recover any losses, this is not always the case with an amateur executor.0 -
Not charging a % of the estate value is going to save them a lot (many solicitors will charge 2%+ and their hourly rate on top).
I agree with the other posters - 20k is nothing compared to the estate size (and potential complications).0 -
Given the work involved £20K is unreasonable unless the Op has not told us something.Not charging a % of the estate value is going to save them a lot (many solicitors will charge 2%+ and their hourly rate on top).
I agree with the other posters - 20k is nothing compared to the estate size (and potential complications).0
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