Windows and Lintels - Ventrolla
Comments
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Yes, that's what the Building Regulations Application is for. You pay the Council about £150 and produce the documentation from the window manufacturer to show the U-value of the windows/doors and any toughened glass etc. and off you go.
I think your getting confused with Building regs Applications and Building Notice scheme. I make timber windows and have never had to supply any documentation for the U value etc. Building Notice scheme is very simple. Client pays council a fee ,I make and fit windows and Council Inspector comes out to every single job and checks the work complies with regs but if the old windows are out they check the opening for support, closed reveals etc.0 -
leveller2911 wrote: »I think your getting confused with Building regs Applications and Building Notice scheme. I make timber windows and have never had to supply any documentation for the U value etc. Building Notice scheme is very simple. Client pays council a fee ,I make and fit windows and Council Inspector comes out to every single job and checks the work complies with regs but if the old windows are out they check the opening for support, closed reveals etc.
Your Building Inspector has been having you on. Replacement doors and windows only have to comply with limited parts of the regulations, structural support and weather tightness are not controlled unless you are making new window openings etc.
https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/14/doors_and_windows/2
But like I said it is a bit of a con because people mistakenly think it gives some protection on quality of installation.0 -
leveller2911 wrote: »How does a manufacturer know if the window needs to have toughened glass or not to comply with regs?. Manufacturers rarely visit the site unless they manufacture and fit. Unless a manufacturer actually visits the site they won't see that a bay window is load bearing and needs to be made accordingly. I can see your point on how it doesn't cover removing lintels etc but its no good companies making windows that would not comply with building regs and omitting toughened glass or incorporating structural supports in their windows doesn't really cut the mustard and certainly doesn't benefit the customer who is paying good money for a FENSA cert thinking it actually means the work has been done correctly.
Taken from the FENSA website :
"This means all replacement windows and doors must comply with Approved Documents N (Safety Glazing) and L (Thermal Insulation). Other elements of the Building Regulations A (Structure), F (Ventilation), B (Means of escape), C (Moisture Penetration, J (Combustion Appliances and Fuel Storage Systems), M (Access) and Regulation 7 (Workmanship and Materials), must not be made worse by the replacement installation".
Clearly the wording states "the structure should not be made worse by the installer , which in Claire's case and many others is made worse so it is down to the FENSA scheme to check .
"To ensure an installer has not created a lesser level of compliance against the Building Regulations, the installer must collect evidence of the features of the original installation. This is particularly appropriate for Approved Document B Fire where the original windows egress ability will determine the compliance of the replacement window".
Who's job is it to make sure the new window complies? the manufacturer (who rarely ever visit the site ) or the installer?. This is the problem because when the work is carried out under the Council Building notice scheme the inspector always asks what time we will be on site and he turns up when the old windows are out and usually before the new ones are in so he can check what existing support is there (if needed) and then has a look at the new windows and checks they comply with part L etc. With FENSA its all down to the honesty of the man who fits it. The moment you start relying on the integrity of the people who have a vested interest in making money out of the job then any scheme will be a failure.
That may be so for Building regs approval but when the windows are fitted they turn up to check them.
The Building Notice scheme means the Building Inspector will turn up on the day of fitting and check the installation (as I said above) . He is impartial and if he sees something wrong he will make sure its addressed.
The real con is the GGF and their FENSA scheme which gives the impression the homeowner is protected from cowboy installers which they aren't and they are charged good money for it.
What we really need is more Local Authority Building Inspectors.
Sorry I missed your earlier post. Like I said I have not followed this thread as it was rather tedious I only chipped in as it was turning into a rant about self certification.
It would seem the crux of this sorry saga was that the window company removed the existing lintels. As soon as that happened the FENSA Competent Person Scheme ceased to cover the work and the window company should have applied for Building Regulations approval unless they could argue they were simply replacing the lintels as a like for like "repair".
For the purposes of my post I have conflated the window manufacturer and installer to keep things simple. Obviously the manufacturer will have the official U-Value calculations and the installer will decide which windows need toughened glass, fire egress hinges, trickle vents etc.
Personally I think we should go back to when you didn't need to involve state bureaucracy just to replace your windows. Like you I favour the independent installation route although my local joinery company are FENSA registered.0 -
Your Building Inspector has been having you on. Replacement doors and windows only have to comply with limited parts of the regulations, structural support and weather tightness are not controlled unless you are making new window openings etc.
https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/14/doors_and_windows/2
But like I said it is a bit of a con because people mistakenly think it gives some protection on quality of installation.
You're missing my point. I fully understand what parts of the regs he is there to check and he can't be there all day watching me to make sure I do everything correct but if for instance he sees the reveals are not closed or the timber lintel above has some rot he will draw my attention to it.
This threads been running for months and I'm still none the wiser who the is company is..:D0 -
leveller2911 wrote: »You're missing my point. I fully understand what parts of the regs he is there to check and he can't be there all day watching me to make sure I do everything correct but if for instance he sees the reveals are not closed or the timber lintel above has some rot he will draw my attention to it.
This threads been running for months and I'm still none the wiser who the is company is..:D
I think I see your point and fair play to your inspector for being thorough but he is exceeding his authority and suggesting all building inspectors are prepared to go above and beyond their duty to protect the homeowner will only lead to more confusion.
If the reveals were not closed originally the inspector has no power to insist you install cavity closers with the replacement windows. If the lintel is defective the inspector has no power to enforce its replacement as a repair is not covered by Building Regs. Obviously any good window fitter/ joiner like yourself would identify these defects themselves and address them, but having the building inspector involved is no guarantee that the quality of installation has been inspected and approved. Neither is using a FENSA registered company as this case illustrates.
Suziesue has already hinted how to find the name of the company (post #168) and if it is the right one they have a very glossy website but look like a typical window fitting company with PVCu, aluminium and timber windows. They say they "supply" and fit the windows so from that I take it they do not manufacture them but probably import them from Eastern Europe as seems to be the norm with a lot of these plastic companies that have moved into the timber window market.0 -
Yes, that's what the Building Regulations Application is for. You pay the Council about £150 and produce the documentation from the window manufacturer to show the U-value of the windows/doors and any toughened glass etc. and off you go.
So that surely means the self certer is doing the job of the building inspector?0 -
So that surely means the self certer is doing the job of the building inspector?
Yes in the same way an electrician or a Gas Safe fitter or a HETAS fitter can self certify their own work. But only the limited sections within the regulations for their particular scheme, so an electrician obviously can only certify for Part P and couldn't self certify windows or a gas fire.0 -
As far as I know the company in question do not do aluminium windows, they have always been in the timber window market and now just venturing into PVCu - I think you may be looking at the wrong company.Suziesue has already hinted how to find the name of the company (post #168) and if it is the right one they have a very glossy website but look like a typical window fitting company with PVCu, aluminium and timber windows. They say they "supply" and fit the windows so from that I take it they do not manufacture them but probably import them from Eastern Europe as seems to be the norm with a lot of these plastic companies that have moved into the timber window market.
Changing the subject a little, has anyone seen the new series of 'Four Rooms', that presenter has got her fingers in a lot of pies! She had a lot of windows in her house refurbished, lets hope no one cut her lintels out!
:think:0 -
Clairebare1 wrote: »As far as I know the company in question do not do aluminium windows, they have always been in the timber window market and now just venturing into PVCu - I think you may be looking at the wrong company.
Changing the subject a little, has anyone seen the new series of 'Four Rooms', that presenter has got her fingers in a lot of pies! She had a lot of windows in her house refurbished, lets hope no one cut her lintels out!
:think:
There are cowboys and sharks in all industries but the Construction Industry seems to have more than most.. I've just got a job to make some Venetian Boxframe sash windows to replace some existing ones. The existing ones were "overhauled and draught stripped " by a fairly large company who claim to be experts. They certainly know how to charge premium prices and the quality of work they did was pretty poor.
I also have an elderly lady who I've done work for for about 20yrs. I just go round about twice a year and have a list of little jobs to do for her. She has recently had some wooden framed casment windos replaced which have alluminium sashes in. They are ok, nothing special but will do the job for a good few years. There were 5 windows, with one large one (4 sashes) and 4 small (2sash) windows and the nationwide company who did the work charged her £18,000 and that was after a discount.
Now the point is we often see cowboy builders on Rogue Traders charging people £500 for replacing a few ridge tiles on a roof but Society seems to think its ok for these Nationwide companies to charge £18,000 to a little old lady for 5 windows which should cost no more that £6k tops (and thats being generous) . These are the people we should be seeing on Rogue traders.
Even these so called premium ,nationwide companies are nothing more than con men.
My Grandad always said "Fit the best" but who are the best?....;)0 -
I'd like to thank Clairebare for this thread. Everytime I'm having more trouble with my new windows & doors that should've been finished in May I come on hear & read this & it reminds me of the old saying "There's always someone worse off than you". I'm sorry it has to be you though!Tall, dark & handsome. Well two out of three ain't bad.0
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