Windows and Lintels - Ventrolla
Comments
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Another week has come and gone and there is good news and bad news!
The good news is that the person from the window company turned up last Friday, as promised - its a start I suppose! He is new to the company (about 5 weeks I think he said) and the person who we have been dealing with at the window company has been saying for weeks that she was going to tell him all about our case before he came. Unfortunately, more empty words, he knew absolutely nothing about the lintel situation. All he was told was that he was snagging the windows, not what had happened to us, or even us having been in this situation for over a year now
The bad news is that we haven't heard any more regarding the box bay (the person who turned up didn't know anything either) and would assume from that that the quality of the window was !!!! and they rejected them. Looking on the bright side we will now start looking to employ another company to do the box bay for us, at least they cant mess any more of our house up now.
On a slightly separate but related note I have contacted FENSA today (will be contacting Trading Standards in a few days), but they didn't seem interested at all - I think someone earlier in this thread said don't bother with FENSA and I think they could have been right. I explained the situation and this is what they said to me:
I am sorry that you have had a less than satisfactory experience with a FENSA registered installer. All registered installers have regular spot checks on installations during each year, however due to the volume of registered installations, it is not possible to inspect every one.
FENSA’S remit only covers building regulation compliance for replacement windows and doors (of 50% glass or more) at time of installation that are complete and registered as compliant. Therefore the complaints regarding the inconvenience, delays and possible damage to your property are rightly addressed to Trading Standards.
Don't think I will waste my time and energy on them anymore! :mad:0 -
I have always said the FENSA scheme is a con. Any scheme that relies on the companies who install windows and doors to check the compliance of their own work was always doomed to fail. Its a crackpot scheme thought up on the back of a ciggie packet by idiots and Its clearly not fit for purpose .
The Glass and Glazing Federation who set up the scheme should hold their heads in shame.
This is precisely why I always encourage my customers to go down the Local Authority Building Control route with the Building Notice Scheme.0 -
leveller2911 wrote: »I have always said the FENSA scheme is a con. Any scheme that relies on the companies who install windows and doors to check the compliance of their own work was always doomed to fail. Its a crackpot scheme thought up on the back of a ciggie packet by idiots and Its clearly not fit for purpose .
The Glass and Glazing Federation who set up the scheme should hold their heads in shame.
This is precisely why I always encourage my customers to go down the Local Authority Building Control route with the Building Notice Scheme.
You are spot on with your comments but many people do not realise why this situation exists. Go back around twenty years and there was a deliberate, concerted drive by the double glazing industry to lower standards. This was achieved, by in effect, taking the work out of the established Buildings Regulations regime. This meant self certification came in.
Self certification means the installer checks their own work then signs it off. To make matters worse, I have never seen a fitter go round with a check list at the end of a job scrutinising and signing off the quality of every aspect of their work. Bluntly it is a con trick, and the consumer is the looser here.
Self certification was also used on all the defective Scottish schools in the news last spring. It was also used on all the defective hospitals in the news during the last week. Here it was used in conjunction with PFI to achieve a double whammy con to the tax payer. The simple truth is self certification is a flawed concept and it does not work.
Clairebare1 is living proof of what happens, as are countless other consumers who post on this forum.0 -
Which is why I buy my own windows, install them myself or get a decent chippy to do it/help me (they make really nice frames to fit in the recesses as the original windows in my house had really thick frames). I make sure everything is over engineered and is sealed properly inside, outside and around the frames.0
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You are spot on with your comments but many people do not realise why this situation exists. Go back around twenty years and there was a deliberate, concerted drive by the double glazing industry to lower standards. This was achieved, by in effect, taking the work out of the established Buildings Regulations regime. This meant self certification came in.
Self certification means the installer checks their own work then signs it off. To make matters worse, I have never seen a fitter go round with a check list at the end of a job scrutinising and signing off the quality of every aspect of their work. Bluntly it is a con trick, and the consumer is the looser here.
Self certification was also used on all the defective Scottish schools in the news last spring. It was also used on all the defective hospitals in the news during the last week. Here it was used in conjunction with PFI to achieve a double whammy con to the tax payer. The simple truth is self certification is a flawed concept and it does not work.
Clairebare1 is living proof of what happens, as are countless other consumers who post on this forum.
I'm not sure the highlighted part of your post is correct Furts. I think its the fault of the Govt of the day because they approached the GGF to run a scheme of self cert ,obviously to cut costs.
Successive Govts (including the current one) have lowered standards in the Construction industry as a whole .Look no further than the Apprenticeship Schemes which are and have been a complete joke for 20yrs.0 -
leveller2911 wrote: »I'm not sure the highlighted part of your post is correct Furts. I think its the fault of the Govt of the day because they approached the GGF to run a scheme of self cert ,obviously to cut costs.
Successive Govts (including the current one) have lowered standards in the Construction industry as a whole .Look no further than the Apprenticeship Schemes which are and have been a complete joke for 20yrs.
The industry calls the shots on Buildings Regulations and like wise British Standards. It is all about what is achievable, and there are consultation documents before new Buildings Regs are introduced.
Once self certification had been mooted the likes of GGF went running to the government saying "us next". It all came about because NHBC started the ball rolling by approaching government. This was successful, and then others followed because it was pushing at an opened door.
Standards have lowered but the consumer has to accept some blame here. If the consumer demanded higher standards it would occur. However the vast majority of consumers have no interest in this happening.0 -
The industry calls the shots on Buildings Regulations and like wise British Standards. It is all about what is achievable, and there are consultation documents before new Buildings Regs are introduced.
Once self certification had been mooted the likes of GGF went running to the government saying "us next". It all came about because NHBC started the ball rolling by approaching government. This was successful, and then others followed because it was pushing at an opened door.
Standards have lowered but the consumer has to accept some blame here. If the consumer demanded higher standards it would occur. However the vast majority of consumers have no interest in this happening.
I think you have misunderstood how the FENSA Competent Person scheme works.
It simply means the window companies can self certify that the windows comply with Part L and Part N of the Building Regulations, something that only the window manufacturer could certify anyway. It does not cover quality of installation as that is not a Building Regulations matter and it certainly does not cover structural alterations like removing lintels as in this case.
What do you think the Building Inspector would do if you submitted a Building Regulations application?They just ask the window company for proof that the windows/doors have the necessary U value and toughened glass will be used if necessary. Now that's a con.0 -
I think you have misunderstood how the FENSA Competent Person scheme works.
It simply means the window companies can self certify that the windows comply with Part L and Part N of the Building Regulations, something that only the window manufacturer could certify anyway. It does not cover quality of installation as that is not a Building Regulations matter...
Surely if that were true, anyone could order a window, get a cert to say it meets certain u values (etc) and install it themselves?0 -
Surely if that were true, anyone could order a window, get a cert to say it meets certain u values (etc) and install it themselves?
Yes, that's what the Building Regulations Application is for. You pay the Council about £150 and produce the documentation from the window manufacturer to show the U-value of the windows/doors and any toughened glass etc. and off you go.0 -
I think you have misunderstood how the FENSA Competent Person scheme works.
It simply means the window companies can self certify that the windows comply with Part L and Part N of the Building Regulations, something that only the window manufacturer could certify anyway. It does not cover quality of installation as that is not a Building Regulations matter and it certainly does not cover structural alterations like removing lintels as in this case.
How does a manufacturer know if the window needs to have toughened glass or not to comply with regs?. Manufacturers rarely visit the site unless they manufacture and fit. Unless a manufacturer actually visits the site they won't see that a bay window is load bearing and needs to be made accordingly. I can see your point on how it doesn't cover removing lintels etc but its no good companies making windows that would not comply with building regs and omitting toughened glass or incorporating structural supports in their windows doesn't really cut the mustard and certainly doesn't benefit the customer who is paying good money for a FENSA cert thinking it actually means the work has been done correctly.
Taken from the FENSA website :
"This means all replacement windows and doors must comply with Approved Documents N (Safety Glazing) and L (Thermal Insulation). Other elements of the Building Regulations A (Structure), F (Ventilation), B (Means of escape), C (Moisture Penetration, J (Combustion Appliances and Fuel Storage Systems), M (Access) and Regulation 7 (Workmanship and Materials), must not be made worse by the replacement installation".
Clearly the wording states "the structure should not be made worse by the installer , which in Claire's case and many others is made worse so it is down to the FENSA scheme to check .
"To ensure an installer has not created a lesser level of compliance against the Building Regulations, the installer must collect evidence of the features of the original installation. This is particularly appropriate for Approved Document B Fire where the original windows egress ability will determine the compliance of the replacement window".
Who's job is it to make sure the new window complies? the manufacturer (who rarely ever visit the site ) or the installer?. This is the problem because when the work is carried out under the Council Building notice scheme the inspector always asks what time we will be on site and he turns up when the old windows are out and usually before the new ones are in so he can check what existing support is there (if needed) and then has a look at the new windows and checks they comply with part L etc. With FENSA its all down to the honesty of the man who fits it. The moment you start relying on the integrity of the people who have a vested interest in making money out of the job then any scheme will be a failure.What do you think the Building Inspector would do if you submitted a Building Regulations application?They just ask the window company for proof that the windows/doors have the necessary U value and toughened glass will be used if necessary. Now that's a con.
That may be so for Building regs approval but when the windows are fitted they turn up to check them.
The Building Notice scheme means the Building Inspector will turn up on the day of fitting and check the installation (as I said above) . He is impartial and if he sees something wrong he will make sure its addressed.
The real con is the GGF and their FENSA scheme which gives the impression the homeowner is protected from cowboy installers which they aren't and they are charged good money for it.
What we really need is more Local Authority Building Inspectors.0
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