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Parking Eye Ticket for ALDI Margate - what next?

123457

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  • So here's another shot at a POPLA appeal. Thoughts?

    Dear POPLA

    POPLA Ref. xxxx
    ParkingEye PNC no. xxxx

    I am writing to you to lodge a formal appeal against a parking charge notice sent to myself as registered keeper of a vehicle, in respect of an alleged breach of parking conditions at “ALDI Margate" on XX XX 2016.

    I appeal to you that I am not liable for this parking charge on the basis of the below points:

    1) ParkingEye has no standing or authority to form contracts with drivers in this particular car park, nor to pursue charges.
    2) The signage in the car park was inadequate.
    4) ParkingEye didn’t allow the reasonable grace period required under the BPA c o p.


    1) ParkingEye has no standing or authority to form contracts with drivers in this particular car park, nor to pursue charges.

    I do not believe that ParkingEye has any proprietary interest in the land such that it has no standing to make contracts with drivers in its own right, or to pursue charges for breach in its own name. In the absence of such title, ParkingEye must have assignment of rights from the landowner to pursue charges for breach in their own right, including at Court level.

    I contend that ParkingEye merely holds a basic licence to supply and maintain (non compliant) signs and to post out 'tickets' as a deterrent to car park users. I therefore require ParkingEye to provide POPLA and me with an unredacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract that it holds with the landowner. This is required so that I may be satisfied that this contract permits ParkingEye to make contracts with drivers in its own right and provides it with full authority to pursue charges, including a right to pursue them in Court in its own name.

    For the avoidance of doubt, a witness statement to the effect that a contract is or was in place will not be sufficient to provide the necessary detail of the contract terms (such as revenue sharing, genuine intentions of these restrictions and charges, set amounts to charge for each stated contravention, etc.). A witness statement would not comply with section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice as the definition of the services provided would not be stated in such a vague template document.


    2) The signage in the car park was inadequate.

    Since receiving this PCN I have visited the car park where the parking event allegedly occurred, and feel that the signage is not adequate. The British Parking Association CoP requires that terms and conditions on car parking signs must be clearly readable. The signs around the car park detailing the terms and conditions of parking are approximately 2 metres off the ground, which is above the average height for an adult and contain a large amount of writing in small lettering that is not easy to read.

    3) ParkingEye didn’t allow the reasonable grace period required under the BPA c o p.

    Clause 13.4 of your Code of Practice states that, “You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.” ANPR cameras are on the entrance and exit road of the car park and they have failed to take into account any grace periods when issuing the parking charge notice. That is time to enter the car park, find a space, study the contract on offer (signs) and accept. ParkingEye state that the vehicle was in the car park for 1 hours and 41 minutes. With a mandatory grace period upon exit of 10 minutes, 11 minutes doesn’t seem unreasonable in this context.

    This concludes my POPLA appeal.

    Yours faithfully,
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    edited 7 September 2016 at 6:35PM
    on point 3) it actually says this
    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
    13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes
    so its a mandatory grace period of a MINIMUM of 10 minutes but could be more , so ask popla to ask PE what the grace period under 13.4 actually is

    and expand on 13.2 , the time you mentioned to park up and read the signage , this can be construed as up to say 10 minutes , but definitely say 5 minutes , then add the two together and you get say over 15 minutes , or 15 to 20 minutes

    ie:- point it out to the popla assessor in no uncertain terms

    and as 13.3 says , they should point out to popla what the initial grace period is if asked , so ask popla to ask them what that period is , its certainly more than 1 minute !!

    labour the point , lol

    and add a point about advertising consent for the signs (see recent threads and pranksters blog)

    any NTK errors or POFA2012 errors ?
  • Ok here's a revision as per Redx's comments excluding the point about advertising consent for signs - I'm looking into that. No NTK errors Redx.
    _____

    Dear POPLA

    POPLA Ref. xxxx
    ParkingEye PNC no. xxxx

    I am writing to you to lodge a formal appeal against a parking charge notice sent to myself as registered keeper of a vehicle, in respect of an alleged breach of parking conditions at “ALDI Margate" on XX XX 2016.

    I appeal to you that I am not liable for this parking charge on the basis of the below points:

    1) ParkingEye has no standing or authority to form contracts with drivers in this particular car park, nor to pursue charges.
    2) The signage in the car park was inadequate.
    4) ParkingEye didn’t allow the reasonable grace period required under the BPA c o p.


    1) ParkingEye has no standing or authority to form contracts with drivers in this particular car park, nor to pursue charges.

    I do not believe that ParkingEye has any proprietary interest in the land such that it has no standing to make contracts with drivers in its own right, or to pursue charges for breach in its own name. In the absence of such title, ParkingEye must have assignment of rights from the landowner to pursue charges for breach in their own right, including at Court level.

    I contend that ParkingEye merely holds a basic licence to supply and maintain (non compliant) signs and to post out 'tickets' as a deterrent to car park users. I therefore require ParkingEye to provide POPLA and me with an unredacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract that it holds with the landowner. This is required so that I may be satisfied that this contract permits ParkingEye to make contracts with drivers in its own right and provides it with full authority to pursue charges, including a right to pursue them in Court in its own name.

    For the avoidance of doubt, a witness statement to the effect that a contract is or was in place will not be sufficient to provide the necessary detail of the contract terms (such as revenue sharing, genuine intentions of these restrictions and charges, set amounts to charge for each stated contravention, etc.). A witness statement would not comply with section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice as the definition of the services provided would not be stated in such a vague template document.


    2) The signage in the car park was inadequate.

    Since receiving this PCN I have visited the car park where the parking event allegedly occurred, and feel that the signage is not adequate. The British Parking Association CoP requires that terms and conditions on car parking signs must be clearly readable. The signs around the car park detailing the terms and conditions of parking are approximately 2 metres off the ground, which is above the average height for an adult and contain a large amount of writing in small lettering that is not easy to read.

    3) ParkingEye didn’t allow the reasonable grace period required under the BPA c o p.

    Section 13 of the British Parking Association code of practise, states

    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to reach your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
    13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.

    In reference to Clause 13.2, this ‘reasonable grace period’ should allow time to enter the car park, find a space, study the contract on offer (signs) and accept. This could take up to 10 minute on entering, and again on exiting, meaning that a reasonable grace period could in fact possibly be considered to be up to 15 or even 20 minutes in total during the visit.

    ANPR cameras are on the entrance and exit road of the car park and they have failed to take into account any grace periods when issuing the parking charge notice. ParkingEye state that the vehicle was in the car park for 1 hours and 41 minutes. With a mandatory grace period upon exit of 10 minutes, 11 minutes doesn’t seem unreasonable in this context.

    As per Clause 13.3 I require that ParkingEye provide details of the grace period for this car park to both POPLA and me. I did not see any reference to ParkingEye’s grace period in the signage (which again points to the inadequate signage at the site), nor in any of the subsequent notices or letters from ParkingEye.

    Clause 13.4 of the Code of Practice states that the mandatory grace period should be a MINIMUM of 10 minutes but could be anything considered to be reasonable. I argue that 1 minute in excess of the absolute minimum cannot be considered unreasonable.

    Furthermore with 11 minutes being a ‘reasonable grace period’ it is important to point out that this case significantly differs from that of Beavis vs ParkingEye case, since there was in fact no breach of contract.

    This concludes my POPLA appeal.

    Yours faithfully,
  • Redx what exactly should I include about advertising consent? Are you suggesting that I check with Thanet Council whether advertising consent was granted? Or is there something more generic I can include?
  • Ok with regard to the advertising consent I have taken a look at the council's planning portal and can't find anything submitted by ParkingEye. I then found the following text proposed for inclusion in POPLA appeals. Should I include?

    The signs advertising parking at the site measure over 1 square metre in area, and are visible from the public highway, but do not have advertising planning consent. They are therefore illegal under the ‘The Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007’, which is criminal law. A contract cannot be formed with illegal instruments, this is a tenet of English law. So this charge must be struck out on these grounds alone.”
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,316 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    Ok with regard to the advertising consent I have taken a look at the council's planning portal and can't find anything submitted by ParkingEye. I then found the following text proposed for inclusion in POPLA appeals. Should I include?

    The signs advertising parking at the site measure over 1 square metre in area, and are visible from the public highway, but do not have advertising planning consent. They are therefore illegal under the ‘The Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007’, which is criminal law. A contract cannot be formed with illegal instruments, this is a tenet of English law. So this charge must be struck out on these grounds alone.”

    This isn't a showstopper. I'd concentrate on the more certain points of appeal. You're chasing shadows with this.

    Unless there is a wet behind the ears new POPLA assessor who gets sucked in by this, it will be disregarded,even rejected. Not having advertising consent is an issue for the local authority, not for POPLA.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
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    edited 7 September 2016 at 8:56PM
    I am not exactly sure of this as its so new

    my point is that any signage needed planning permission and advertising consent , so if you are appealing on signage then surely its a factor ? , especially if this ever went to court

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5446569

    this is what prankster said
    ParkingEye discontinue two cases over criminal offence of non-permitted signage


    ParkingEye has now withdrawn two claims, one in Bury and the other in Cambridge where the following defence has been used. The defence centres on ParkingEye’s failure to obtain planning permission and advertisement consent and that no man should profit from his crime; it being a crime not to have advertisement consent.

    It seems that PE prefer not to have this defence tested
    recently , popla ruled on the no notification within 14 days , a BPA CoP idea, so we dont know what popla may latch onto next

    I do know that if you dont elaborate on the first grace period , popla assessors just look at the grace period for exit , ask themselves if the number 11 is greater than 10 and find for the claimant, hence why its important to spell it out

    see what this says about grace periods and Parking Eye

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5508395

    so at least 2 companies expect 30 minutes grace period , 2 or 3 times what the CoP may state

    I know coupon mad mentioned wording of a new clause due to a popla assessors decision, so anything is possible

    what I do know is , if you dont ask , you dont get

    I believe that one car park , maybe AIRE ST , had issues with signage or planning permission , plus contract issues, its all grist for the mill

    assume nothing , question everything

    signage needs advertising consent

    anpr cameras need planning consent

    so no you dont check with the council, you put PE to strict proof , same as with the landowner contract
  • Thanks Umkomaas.

    I am now trying to submit my appeal but it seems as though I can only do so in very small boxes, meaning I cannot submit my appeal as per my above letter. Is this the normal procedure?
  • Thanks Redx. I'll include, or at least try to. There are only 2000 characters/box allowed and so I cannot actually include my whole argument.
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
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    in that box , you just put

    see attached appeal


    then you upload/attach the popla appeal as a pdf document (or a word doc if you have to)

    I would not appeal yet as you have not had enough feedback yet

    not unless your popla code is about to run out
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