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  • FIRST POST
    • Former MSE Wendy
    • By Former MSE Wendy 7th Apr 08, 7:06 PM
    • 868Posts
    • 1,782Thanks
    Former MSE Wendy
    Car Insurance Job Picker Discussion
    • #1
    • 7th Apr 08, 7:06 PM
    Car Insurance Job Picker Discussion 7th Apr 08 at 7:06 PM

    This thread is to discuss what you think of the


    And to check with other MoneySavers if they think your new job title is legit.

    Please click reply to discuss.
    Last edited by Former MSE Wendy; 12-06-2008 at 4:31 PM.
Page 3
  • PollyLL
    Highway will almost certainly refund the premium, this is because they have declared that the contract is null and void so therefore did not exist. This is why they refund the premium.

    One thing to bear in mind is that having a policy cancelled / voided generally makes it very difficult to obtain any other type of Insurance including home insurance. You will find that Insurers specifically ask a question about it and will certainly require you to advise them of it before or at renewal time.
    Originally posted by dacouch
    This is bad news. All for their stupid £850. Unbelievable and a warning to others, but I'm gonna fight them on it. I don't care about the money, but my reputation is important as these black marks tend to cause others to ignore your story which is just plain stupid in this case.
  • PollyLL
    I lloked again at the go compare job selection fields. It says to pick an occupation that best reflects the work that you do. I did, managing property lettings.
    • dacouch
    • By dacouch 23rd Nov 09, 6:51 AM
    • 20,264 Posts
    • 12,510 Thanks
    dacouch
    You should do the following.

    Write an "Official Complaint" to Highway, it explains where to write this to in your policy booklet. Highway will have to deal with this within a certain timescale and will have to investigate your complaint properly. This is laid down by the FSA.

    To be able to overturn the decision you will need to demonstrate that you did not intentionally miss lead them eg it was an innocent mistake. It also hinges on whether Highway (Not Swintons who are a broker would have offered a quote through a different Insurer) would have accepted you as a client if you had declared your occupation to be a Landlord.

    Keep your letter concise and polite.

    If they still do not overturn their decision you can then take the complaint to the Ombudsman which is a free service to you but can take many many months for them to investigate and make a descision.

    I would also suggest that you make sure you have spoken to each of your other Insurers and make them aware of your occupation and that you have had an Insurance policy voided. If you do this over the phone take a note of the name and date / time of the person you speak to. If you have not done this and there are problems in the future you could also face problems with your other policies
  • PollyLL
    Update. The insurer Highway, says they just don't insure landlords. The FSA Ombudsman however has guidance that says if a non-disclosure was an innocent mistake, that the insurer won't be able to avoid the policy. They're now taking it up as a complaint as there is no conceivable reason that I would know that Highway doesn't insure landlords, but does insure Property Managers in Property Lettings. Highway are also looking into it again based on that FSA guidance and the guy sounded hopeful and understanding of my position that I don't want a stupid thing like this to cost me bundles in future insurance costs because of a voided policy.

    I went into Swintons local office earlier in the process, they were very surprised and wanted to do all they could, but came up against Highway telling them they just don't insure landlords. She did openly acknowledge that I may have to pay loaded premiums in the future unless I can get it resolved which is why I'm determined to.

    I spoke to Churchills, my car insurer. They agreed it was ridiculous, didn't affect the premium they've already charged me and have put a note on my policy to show I've disclosed the voided policy. By sheer co-incidence I was also paying my house insurance policy for my let places today, told them during the CC payment process, also thought it was ridiculous and didn't even want to note it for the house insurance.

    Warning to others: ignore the advice on this website to tweak your job title (not that I was following it anyway) as it could be much worse than my case.

    No reply from Martin or anyone working for MSE by the way.
    • olly300
    • By olly300 23rd Nov 09, 3:55 PM
    • 14,314 Posts
    • 13,632 Thanks
    olly300

    Warning to others: ignore the advice on this website to tweak your job title (not that I was following it anyway) as it could be much worse than my case.
    .
    Originally posted by PollyLL
    I think you should actually change your advice as I like a few other people who use these boards work in industries where job titles are not clearly defined. I've worked with many different titles and have done exactly the same job. So when people ask me what I do I tend to answer with more than one job title.

    Your actually advice would be more correct to say that if you are going to choose a job title for insurance purposes make sure its one you do use when people ask you what you do.
    I'm not cynical I'm realistic

    (If a link I give opens pop ups I won't know I don't use windows)
  • PollyLL
    I think you should actually change your advice as I like a few other people who use these boards work in industries where job titles are not clearly defined. I've worked with many different titles and have done exactly the same job. So when people ask me what I do I tend to answer with more than one job title.

    Your actually advice would be more correct to say that if you are going to choose a job title for insurance purposes make sure its one you do use when people ask you what you do.
    Originally posted by olly300
    Agree 100%.

    I was looking at my old bike policy when going through the papers. I stated Property Developer on that one for many years. I've done 7 extensions and many renovations, so that title is equally relevant as is Property Manager and Landlord. There's no plaque on my door that states my occupation, my response to people depends what's occupying me the most lately and I tend to be embarrassed by the word 'landord' as it doesn't convey an image of an active person. Much prefer Property Investor which is a more common term used in Australia where I come from.
    • dacouch
    • By dacouch 23rd Nov 09, 5:34 PM
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    • 12,510 Thanks
    dacouch
    You do not just have to demonstrate that the non disclosure was innocent, it is also subject to the Insurer accepting you as a client if you had disclosed the correct information.

    What the Churchills employee thinks of Highways Policy is irrespective, Highway as can any Insurer have certain jobs they will accept / charge more. There would be certain jobs that Churchill do not accept that you may also find odd.

    I would be cautious over the Churchill employee not noting the voided policy on your Home Insurance
  • PollyLL
    This is the text I'm banking on from the FSA Ombudsman link that you provided yesterday (thanks):

    innocent
    Customers act in good faith if their non-disclosure is made innocently. This may happen because the question is unclear or ambiguous, or because the relevant information is not something that they should reasonably know. In these cases, the insurer will not be able to ‘avoid’ the contract and (subject to the policy terms and conditions) should pay the claim in full.
    --------------------------------

    As far as I'm concerned, there's no way I could know that the description I gave them of my occupation would be the difference between a valid policy and an invalid policy. I gave a description that I stand by and apart from the helpful arguments on this forum, no other person has looked me in the eye and said I should have strictly used Landlord.

    I wonder how many landlords Highway have policy's for where they could claim they were invalid because people also have another occupation, that they use on their form. You could argue that they should have declared landlord (imagine they earned more money as a landlord than they did as a school teacher for example), all Highway has to have is a slip of the tongue and the person is left uninsured.
    • rudekid48
    • By rudekid48 23rd Nov 09, 7:26 PM
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    rudekid48
    Did you state that you were self employed or an employee? A lot could ride on that. Your argument holds more water if you had declared yourself to be a self employed lettings manager. If you stated that you were employed then you will probably struggle to convince them of your innocence.
    • dacouch
    • By dacouch 23rd Nov 09, 7:37 PM
    • 20,264 Posts
    • 12,510 Thanks
    dacouch
    This is the text I'm banking on from the FSA Ombudsman link that you provided yesterday (thanks):

    innocent
    Customers act in good faith if their non-disclosure is made innocently. This may happen because the question is unclear or ambiguous, or because the relevant information is not something that they should reasonably know. In these cases, the insurer will not be able to ‘avoid’ the contract and (subject to the policy terms and conditions) should pay the claim in full.
    --------------------------------

    As far as I'm concerned, there's no way I could know that the description I gave them of my occupation would be the difference between a valid policy and an invalid policy. I gave a description that I stand by and apart from the helpful arguments on this forum, no other person has looked me in the eye and said I should have strictly used Landlord.

    I wonder how many landlords Highway have policy's for where they could claim they were invalid because people also have another occupation, that they use on their form. You could argue that they should have declared landlord (imagine they earned more money as a landlord than they did as a school teacher for example), all Highway has to have is a slip of the tongue and the person is left uninsured.
    Originally posted by PollyLL
    Your ommiting this part from the section your quoting from

    Taking account of the law and good industry practice, we approach non-disclosure/misrepresentation cases in three stages. We summarise these three stages below, before describing each one in a little more detail.
    When the customer sought insurance, did the insurer ask a clear question about the matter which is now under dispute?
    Did the answer to that clear question induce the insurer; that is, did it influence the insurer’s decision to enter into the contract at all, or to do so under terms and conditions that it otherwise would not have accepted?
    Only if the answers to both (1) and (2) are ‘yes’, do we go on to consider whether the customer’s misrepresentation was an honest mistake, a dishonest attempt to mislead or due to some degree of negligence.

    This is basically saying if the Insurer would not have offered cover had they been given the correct information they can void the policy IRRESPECTIVE of whether it was innocent or intentional.

    With regard to your point about having two occupations Insurers (Including Highway) ask if you have any part time or any other occupations
    • olly300
    • By olly300 23rd Nov 09, 10:27 PM
    • 14,314 Posts
    • 13,632 Thanks
    olly300
    Did you state that you were self employed or an employee? A lot could ride on that. Your argument holds more water if you had declared yourself to be a self employed lettings manager. If you stated that you were employed then you will probably struggle to convince them of your innocence.
    Originally posted by rudekid48
    Quick suggestion read the thread.

    The poster stated they were self-employed.
    I'm not cynical I'm realistic

    (If a link I give opens pop ups I won't know I don't use windows)
  • PollyLL
    Did you state that you were self employed or an employee? A lot could ride on that. Your argument holds more water if you had declared yourself to be a self employed lettings manager. If you stated that you were employed then you will probably struggle to convince them of your innocence.
    Originally posted by rudekid48
    I didn't state either employed or self-employed, just occupation.
  • PollyLL
    Your ommiting this part from the section your quoting from

    Taking account of the law and good industry practice, we approach non-disclosure/misrepresentation cases in three stages. We summarise these three stages below, before describing each one in a little more detail.



    When the customer sought insurance, did the insurer ask a clear question about the matter which is now under dispute?


    Did the answer to that clear question induce the insurer; that is, did it influence the insurer’s decision to enter into the contract at all, or to do so under terms and conditions that it otherwise would not have accepted?

    Only if the answers to both (1) and (2) are ‘yes’, do we go on to consider whether the customer’s misrepresentation was an honest mistake, a dishonest attempt to mislead or due to some degree of negligence.

    This is basically saying if the Insurer would not have offered cover had they been given the correct information they can void the policy IRRESPECTIVE of whether it was innocent or intentional.

    With regard to your point about having two occupations Insurers (Including Highway) ask if you have any part time or any other occupations
    Originally posted by dacouch
    It doesn't say that to me/my interpretation. In the case of occupation, I answered a simple question with the answer I felt was right at the time. It wasn't an inducement as far as I'm concerned. An inducement might be for example that a person declared they had no convictions, but actually had several for example.

    I'm happy that it falls under innocent mistake which I had no reasonable belief that it could be a material problem and the FSA lady felt the same, Swinton felt the same, Highway felt the same in conversation, but hadn't considered it in this light. If I'm lucky I'll have a quick positive answer from them soon. Otherwise I'll be filling in the FSA forms etc and in light of it only being an £850 claim, I can't see why they would want it to drag on over technicalities.
    • rudekid48
    • By rudekid48 23rd Nov 09, 10:42 PM
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    • 3,522 Thanks
    rudekid48
    I didn't state either employed or self-employed, just occupation.
    Originally posted by PollyLL
    There is a compulsory question on the GoCompare motorcycle quote page that says "Full-time employment status" and has a drop down list of options. You must have chosen one of them to be able to get a quote.

    When you got your policy documents from Swinton they will also have sent you a copy of the Proposal Form / Statement of Insurance. Have a look on that and see what is recorded for your employment status - employed or self employed, it might (only might!) help you.
    • rudekid48
    • By rudekid48 23rd Nov 09, 10:45 PM
    • 2,034 Posts
    • 3,522 Thanks
    rudekid48
    Quick suggestion read the thread.

    The poster stated they were self-employed.
    Originally posted by olly300
    Quick suggestion - read the thread properly. The OP stated in their email to MSE that they were self employed, at no point did the OP state what they had entered into Go Compare.

    Keep your sarcasm to yourself, just because you were in the bottom 2 on XFactor is no reason to be a tosser on here.
    • dacouch
    • By dacouch 23rd Nov 09, 10:48 PM
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    dacouch
    1) The FSA do not have much influence over the payment of your claim
    2) Swintons staff normally have a very limited understanding of Insurance
    3) The person you spoke to at Highway is unlikely to be the person who makes the ultimate decision on your case.
    4) Read the advice from the Ombudsman from the link again and read the three points in their propert context. They clearly state they will not even consider whether the non disclosure was innocent or deliberate etc unless both the first two points are met eg was the question clear which it is very likely they will agree it was clear and secondly would have Highway accepted you as a client if you had declared you are a property landlord. If the answer to either or both of the questions is no then whether your non disclosure was innocent or not is irrelevant.

    As I have stated before any complaint you make has to address these matters to have any chance of success. If you do not receive the response you want you then complain to the Omudsman and not the FSA
  • PollyLL
    There is a compulsory question on the GoCompare motorcycle quote page that says "Full-time employment status" and has a drop down list of options. You must have chosen one of them to be able to get a quote.

    When you got your policy documents from Swinton they will also have sent you a copy of the Proposal Form / Statement of Insurance. Have a look on that and see what is recorded for your employment status - employed or self employed, it might (only might!) help you.
    Originally posted by rudekid48
    Yes there is that area, but it only asks for occupation and type of business. I put Property Manager and Property Lettings.

    If you type in self, it doesn't come up with self-employed as an option, but that is also a term I use to describe my role sometimes, but not in this case.
  • PollyLL
    1) The FSA do not have much influence over the payment of your claim
    2) Swintons staff normally have a very limited understanding of Insurance
    3) The person you spoke to at Highway is unlikely to be the person who makes the ultimate decision on your case.
    4) Read the advice from the Ombudsman from the link again and read the three points in their propert context. They clearly state they will not even consider whether the non disclosure was innocent or deliberate etc unless both the first two points are met eg was the question clear which it is very likely they will agree it was clear and secondly would have Highway accepted you as a client if you had declared you are a property landlord. If the answer to either or both of the questions is no then whether your non disclosure was innocent or not is irrelevant.

    As I have stated before any complaint you make has to address these matters to have any chance of success. If you do not receive the response you want you then complain to the Omudsman and not the FSA
    Originally posted by dacouch
    The questions/text on go compares site:
    ==========================
    Type the first few letters of your occupation and business and we'll search for a match.

    If you have trouble finding your exact job title, look for a similar job that best reflects the work that you do. If you're still having trouble, use the button to see the full occupation list.
    ================================

    I typed in P..R..O..P...E and chose Property Manager for occupation, then again P..R..O..P..E and chose Property Lettings for type of business.

    If any of you test their site yourselves, you'll see for Property Lettings I could have chosen Property Owner, but I chose lettings on the day.

    A pretty simple question/answer process. My opinion is that no, it wasn't clear that it was a critical question. I did what was instructed and chose what I felt was right. My answer was acceptable to any normal person and I'm going with that.

    Re who I've complained to and am expecting forms to fill in now, it's the Financial Services Ombudsman that I've been talking about and not the FSA sorry.
    Last edited by PollyLL; 23-11-2009 at 11:41 PM.
    • dacouch
    • By dacouch 23rd Nov 09, 11:43 PM
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    dacouch
    Go with that then, but if that is your sole arguement and Highway would not have accepted you as a client then it is highly likely you will fail.

    The ombudsman will take between 3months and a year to make a decision so if you can word your complaint correctly and get Highway to change their decision before it goes to the Ombudsman it will save you a lot of waiting

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/consumer_affairs/article6925373.ece
  • PollyLL
    Go with that then, but if that is your sole arguement and Highway would not have accepted you as a client then it is highly likely you will fail.

    The ombudsman will take between 3months and a year to make a decision so if you can word your complaint correctly and get Highway to change their decision before it goes to the Ombudsman it will save you a lot of waiting

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/consumer_affairs/article6925373.ece
    Originally posted by dacouch
    Thanks. They sounded pretty reasonable today when I read the text of the innocent mistake meaning they can't avoid the insurance. If you read that go compare text above, I did what I was asked and it should be pretty clear really. The trouble is getting the clarity to the person making the decision, so I hope I communicated it well today.
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